Can Atheist be objectively moral in the case of a possible follower of an infallible?

[TubbyTubby]

We have the same problem as in Atheism.  Everyone is left to their opinion and follows their desire without guidance from God.

Would you say one of these...



..has guidance from a god about their moral behaviour?

This morning I noticed our psycho cat looking a bit shifty sat near a bush, a closer look revealed an injured bird that she was after. More interestingly, the birds partner (I presume) was flying, sitting and whistling around the cat and taking real risks for her own safety in order to distract the cat to allow the other bird to escape.

I cut the episode short by rounding psycho cat up (not an easy task I can tell you) and shutting it indoors so the bird had a fighting chance.

What was the bird demonstrating by putting itself at risk in order to save another? Does it believe in Allah and learnt its moral guidelines from the Quran?

[robvalue]

Good point. It's this obsession that humans are somehow magically special. We're just animals.

My female rabbit chased off a cat that she thought was getting too close to her hus-bun!

[Chas]

Sorry MK.
Nice try.

But I get my guidance from the pink unicorn.
My pink unicorn's beliefs have " never" been used for evil!
You should try it...!

Why would a human follow a pink unicorn?

Why would a human follow a medieval delusional pedophile?

[robvalue]

It seems to me MK that you're dreaming up an extremely complicated explanation for why the Quran is producing the results you'd expect from a normal book written by humans.

[Mystic]

It seems to me MK that you're dreaming up an extremely complicated explanation for why the Quran is producing the results you'd expect from a normal book written by humans.

I've read text books in school. No force was preventing me from thinking about what it says or seeing flow or seeing what phrase is saying. There is no massive blindness on part of the class to what it says, and if people are little confused over something, they usually ask for clarification, and then understand. However with Quran, it seems it's unique with respect to how it's been treated unjustly and the blindness towards it and the prevention of reflection.

[Anomalocaris]

Does this all come from the Quran?

I believe so with proper and inspired understanding.

Emphasis mine.

That is not only not good enough, it does not even begin make any headway whatsoever towards admissibility.

[robvalue]

Well, by your own admission MK, if the Quran is being treated unjustly it's entirely Allah's fault for refusing to clear this dark force away. If he did that, we could all read it just fine, right?

So your complaint is with your own deity my friend. He's guiding us with one hand and slapping us with the other.

The thing is, textbooks in school generally contain demonstrated scientific facts. This is an old book written by primitive people, that you feel should contain something special. But it's not surprising the book containing magical occurrences is less well understood than a factual book.

[Mystic]

Well, by your own admission MK, if the Quran is being treated unjustly it's entirely Allah's fault for refusing to clear this dark force away. If he did that, we could all read it just fine, right?

It's own words, there is a trial there in, and while it's mercy to the believers, it doesn't increase the unjust except in loss.  It is by design meant to be that way.  It seems God didn't want it to make it too easy.

I remember while I was a Deist, I made the argument that perhaps God wants us to reflect for ourselves, and strive to perfect our inward Messenger as opposed to just sending Messengers to be followed without thought. I realize now, that this is part of the equation. God doesn't want us blindly following but to have insight through reflection and using our minds. He wants us to think, and this is in it's words one of the purposes of the revelation, for people to reflect/think.

Aside from that, God seems to love to be veiled like a woman is veiled with her Hijaab.  He loves for people to strive to see his light and treasure. 

One of the wisdom I am beginning to understand, is that he gift wrapped, his favor of Imam Ali and the Imams from his offspring, that he takes a wakeful heart and reflecting mind to see them with certainty in Quran.

It's like a box within a box, wrap within wrap, and each layer, you see more of their position and exalted station, with reflection.

However, they are hidden in plain sight so to speak. That despite reason proving them beyond doubt and the wakeful heart perceiving their position in there, majority of Muslims deny their position in Quran.

It's mind boggling to me. If it was written by a human why would a human do this? It seems it took wisdom to know exactly what would take place on the hearts of humanity, that reflective understanding hearts would see them with certainty while their enemies and deniers would mock "Where are they in Quran?". 

It's a bizarre thing to say the least, manifesting such genius subtle wisdom and knowledge on part of it's author, yet a trial in it's own words that doesn't increase the unjust but in loss while being a mercy to believers.

[robvalue]

It was written by a human. The motivation most likely is to control people with fantastical tales, granting the authors divine righteousness to push everyone around. Or perhaps it started off just as a work of fiction loosely based on reality. Who knows why they wrote it? Jumping to "its magic from God because it's strange" is about as big an unjustified leap as you can make.

You are dreaming up fantastical scenarios in your head which require huge numbers of unfounded assumptions, to try and get around the fact that the book is not having the effect you'd expect it to have if it was inspired. It's much more likely it is not inspired. That requires no assumptions at all.

The God you describe sounds like a dick head I'm afraid. He's deliberately making us unable to interpret his message correctly, not stepping in to stop the confusion, and allowing people to literally kill each other over the differences. This is a dick head. It's certainly no benevolent being. Whatever his twisted idea of morality is, I want no part in it. I'm afraid you've kind of shot yourself in the foot there.

[Mystic]

One of God's Names is al-Mubtali (The one who tests), and it's to bring about the best in us.

I don't think he made us incapable to interpret his message when he

1) Appointed Leaders to teach the true interpretation of God's book.
2) When he advises us to reflect and warns us of the recitation of dark forces, and advises us how to defeat it.
3) When others verses interpret and shed light on other verses that need interpretation.

It's just that it requires a bit of effort and sincerity, otherwise, it's been made easy to remember the message. Just not too easy.