Theists - how certain are you that a God exists?

[Whateverist]

Be careful. The last funny Christian (intentionally funny, that is) that I can remember joining AF de-converted.

Well If you believe I am wrong in my current belief system and headed towards de-converting, why do you say I should be careful?  One might think you would want to help me along to the correct belief.  Though I'm not concerned.  If my beliefs were that flippant they wouldn't be worth believing at all.

Hell the theists can use all the people they can get with a sense of humor.  They need you more than we do.  If you'd like a consultation on how you might hold your beliefs more reasonably with the least amount of cognitive dissonance, I might be able tp help. 

I'm no missionary and haven't any preference for what you believe.  However I have a strong preference that you not push to enthrone your beliefs into secular society.

[Kingpin]

Well If you believe I am wrong in my current belief system and headed towards de-converting, why do you say I should be careful?  One might think you would want to help me along to the correct belief.  Though I'm not concerned.  If my beliefs were that flippant they wouldn't be worth believing at all.

Hell the theists can use all the people they can get with a sense of humor.  They need you more than we do.  If you'd like a consultation on how you might hold your beliefs more reasonably with the least amount of cognitive dissonance, I might be able tp help. 

I'm no missionary and haven't any preference for what you believe.  However I have a strong preference that you not push to enthrone your beliefs into secular society.

On this you and I will always agree.  Religious belief is and always should be a personal belief and has no business being pressed upon society as a whole.

[Jenny A]

I do. Neither exist. Your move.

  First Atheist I found to be consistent.  Either it exists or it doesn't (1 or 0).  Therefore the probability of Alien Life is not any better than the probability for God if you are an atheist.  For me as a theist God exists and Alien Life can exist even if no evidence of it is at hand.   I have more respect for an Atheist who draws conclusions consistently even though I may disagree with them.

The probability that anything in particular exists are 100% or 0% because things exist or they don't?  Do you really just say that, because you've just missed the whole point of weighing uncertainty.

In any case, life exists here and similar planets exist elsewhere, therefore the probability of alien life existing is much greater than zero.  So far there is no evidence of god or anything analogous to god, therefore the probability of god is low.

[ktrap]

First Atheist I found to be consistent.  Either it exists or it doesn't (1 or 0).  Therefore the probability of Alien Life is not any better than the probability for God if you are an atheist.  For me as a theist God exists and Alien Life can exist even if no evidence of it is at hand.   I have more respect for an Atheist who draws conclusions consistently even though I may disagree with them.

No, and this is where you are going wrong. It is not the probability of existence, as this is meaningless. It is the probability GIVEN the evidence we have.

So to compare Gods vs alien life:

For both we have stories of people claiming interacting with them. We have numerous books full of claims. We have peoples testimonies.

However for alien life, we have at least one example of life existing. So we know it can exist. With God we don't even have that.
For sentient life, we only know of one method that produces it - evolution. This process is far from certain to produce sentient life on a planet that has life.
If we had a God sitting here that we could measure, study and understand then, the probability of finding another would start to increase.


This is incredibly basic stuff. Lets take it back to underwater life.
Claim 1: There is an undiscovered type of plant deep under the sea that is undiscovered.
Claim 2: There are mermaids under the sea.

Which do you think has a higher probability of existing, given what we know about life? They aren't the same. (You'll note that there are far more testimonies about mermaids than there are this plant)

 Your conclusions do not make sense.  You state something doesn't exist because it lacks evidence and then say if certain evidence exist what does not exist might exist even though there is lack of evidence.

A) God does not exist because it lacks evidence.
B) Alien Life may exist because Life exists on earth, however, no evidence of Alien Life  

Even with your claim 1 and 2

1) If it is undiscovered it does not exist (even if other plants exist that does mean an undiscovered plant exists)
2) Mermaids exist if you have seen one, if you didn't see one then they don't exist.

You are trying to make A & 2 completely false (God and mermaids don't exist) but try to justify the existence of B & 1 (Alien Life & undiscovered plant) even though it also lacks evidence like A & 2.

I can not understand how you justify your reasoning.  

This is why for me some Atheist arguments do not make sense.  

Cato was correct not to accept God and Alien Life because both lack evidence.  That is being consistent.  Though I totally disagree with his conclusions, because for me God exists and Alien Life can exist even though there is lack of evidence.

Now you might wonder what my reasoning is if there is no evidence.

Theists are able to infer something can exist based on certain evidence.

Why? because theists are not subjected to a true/false logic.   

For example, for me as a theist, based on the complexity of life and universe, I draw the following conclusion, it must require an intelligent being to do this (God) and therefore God must exist in order for life and this universe to exist.  

But is God created? No, God is the first cause.  Well how is that possible?  It's possible because one of God's attributes is infinity (an infinite being) and infinity has no beginning and no end, therefore God is the first cause.

[TheChrist]

100 percent.

[ktrap]

 Look in the mirror and ask yourself, "Do I come from nothing?"

That's your evidence? Bitch, please.

Don't know about you, but I came from two parents. Your gawd had nothing whatsoever to do with it.

 That is very shallow, you are unable to go beyond one generation to figure out where you came from?

---

 Look in the mirror and ask yourself, "Do I come from nothing?"

And the answer is yeah, I'm pretty sure I do. I'm also pretty sure everything else does, too. Physicists are starting to agree with me, actually.

See, antimatter is definitely a real thing, it just doesn't occur naturally in very many places in the Universe because the moment you add it to regular matter,  they annihilate each other and create nothing. Physicists are now exploring the possibility that the same process can be done in reverse, getting us remarkably close to a scientific explanation for an origin of all matter and energy from nothing.

And if we come from nothing and will return to nothing,  what's so bad about that? Why do you have such a hard time believing it?

 Then you believe in "Spontaneous Creation" ?

---

  First Atheist I found to be consistent.  Either it exists or it doesn't (1 or 0).  Therefore the probability of Alien Life is not any better than the probability for God if you are an atheist.  For me as a theist God exists and Alien Life can exist even if no evidence of it is at hand.   I have more respect for an Atheist who draws conclusions consistently even though I may disagree with them.

While Cato's criteria for signing off on either one in any particular case may be the same, the arguments which can be made for thinking there must be life else where in the universe totally kicks the ass of any 'argument' in favor of the existence of gods.

For starters, it doesn't appear that the number and variety of elements in other planetary systems in our galaxy or across the galaxies are much different from those found in our own.  It is reasonable to assume that from the same starting conditions similar results will follow.

 I am sure you have heard of the "Drake Equation".  It basically estimates the number of planets that are inhabitable (having similar conditions like earth).  At one point the number is pretty large, but then the number got smaller because some astronomers and other scientists felt the distance of the planet should in the Goldilock zone (somewhere between venus and mars).  Then even if there are planets that meet that criteria, still there is no guarantee Life will evolve on the planet if certain conditions are not met (no biological evolution).  This brings the estimate down even more.   How are you assuming there is more chance of Alien Life then God existence?

[IATIA]

But is God created? No, God is the first cause.  Well how is that possible?  It's possible because one of God's attributes is infinity (an infinite being) and infinity has no beginning and no end, therefore God is the first cause.

If god has been around for an 'infinity', then we would not be here as an infinite amount of time has not passed, nor ever will.

If god is placed 'outside' time, then our universe must be outside time as well.

If both are outside time, then there is no causality and everything just 'is'.

Without time god could not create the universe because there was no 'before there was a universe'.

[abaris]

On this you and I will always agree.  Religious belief is and always should be a personal belief and has no business being pressed upon society as a whole.

QTFT.

[ktrap]

But is God created? No, God is the first cause.  Well how is that possible?  It's possible because one of God's attributes is infinity (an infinite being) and infinity has no beginning and no end, therefore God is the first cause.

If god has been around for an 'infinity', then we would not be here as an infinite amount of time has not passed, nor ever will.

If god is placed 'outside' time, then our universe must be outside time as well.

If both are outside time, then there is no causality and everything just 'is'.

Without time god could not create the universe because there was no 'before there was a universe'.

 This is your misunderstanding.  Within an infinite realm, this universe is created and expanding.   

Why must an infinite realm need time? If you think time is needed then God has an infinite amount of time to create the universe.

[Redbeard The Pink]

If spontaneous creation means the Universe can get started from nothing with no gods to help it, then, yeah, I believe that's possible. I also believe it's possible that some form of material reality has always existed. Which is it? Hell if I know. Neither model requires god, though, let alone some magical consciousness that lives in everything.