Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
(July 29, 2015 at 9:20 am)Alex K Wrote: As we often mention (when theists appear in the forum trying to explain to us all the things we allegedly believe), atheism is most commonly defined around these parts here as the lack of belief in deities (YMMV). As such, absolutely nothing else can be derived from the fact that someone is an atheist.
Still, we are mostly a social species, and many recurring elements of atheist culture have cropped up especially in the course of the new atheist thing which became famous ten years ago. So, whether you especially like them or not, you have more probably than not listened to talks by Richard Dawkins, or Christopher Hitchens, or you've read a book about Evolution or two because of creationism, or you've made jokes about the flying spaghetti monster, listened to the same podcasts as many others, maybe you get, like me, a warm fuzzy feeling and a strange sensation of awe when you look at Darwin's original specimens in the natural history museum, and so on and so forth.
Even if you don't share/know/are a fan of every single one of these things, they together form some kind of recognizable shared culture with shared slang, inside jokes, typical lines of arguments, maybe even rituals, which provide a sense of commonality and possibly community for those who are loosely associated with new atheism. There is an overlap with Skepticism with a "k", for which the same things are true. This is at least is the context in which I see my atheism and skepticism today, even though I was an atheist long before I knew who Richard Dawkins etc. were, and even though I don't want most of these people speaking for me.
Now I also know that many of you are die-hard individuals who tend to e.g. reject any association with the usual popular figureheads of atheism, but still I wonder whether those of you don't also, deep down, feel they are part of a shared atheist (popular) culture which provides some sense of comfort and belonging to you even if you aren't a formal member of any org.
I hope you understand what I mean, and I'd like to hear about your attitude towards all that
I do not really feel a sense of shared culture with atheists. That I have atheism in common with other people means that I am more likely to have other things in common. For example, one is not going to find too many atheist creationists, so there is really quite a lot that is going to be in common just from atheism alone. But it is not enough to make me feel part of a community of atheists. Perhaps this is partly because I am not the sort of person who would be apt to join a club.
Now, I am glad that there are outspoken atheists, and I am personally fine with the fact that some of them are brusque. I am glad that some others are not. I think it is good for there to be a variety of approaches, as different approaches work better for some people than for others. And it is good to convey the idea that religion is not sacred and not deserving of respect, so it is okay for there to be some rude atheists.
Also, some atheists are stupid, unpleasant, and obnoxious people generally, and I don't care for such people. Of course, that is separate from their atheism, as there are plenty of stupid, unpleasant, and obnoxious theists. In fact, it seems more common among theists, though certainly it is not an accurate description of them all.
So, for me, there has to be something more than just that someone is an atheist for me to feel a special bond.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
July 29, 2015 at 4:10 pm (This post was last modified: July 29, 2015 at 4:12 pm by Alex K.)
Quote:So, for me, there has to be something more than just that someone is an atheist for me to feel a special bond.
I understand completely - there is no guarantee that another atheist has the personality traits and shares the values that are most important to you just because she or he is an atheist. But that is also true for me and other Germans, and no one would deny that I am a part of a shared German culture. Similarly, as a western English speaking atheist today one likely shares some cultural symbols and knowledge with other atheists and therefore unwittingly is in a shared culture and community of the sort I describe above without necessarily realizing it or striving for it. It may not be so true for you, but I believe it is for many including myself, but I'm not sure which is why I asked the question.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
(July 29, 2015 at 4:13 pm)Alex K Wrote: Come on, you're not even trying!
k ._.
No, I don't feel any sense of shared culture with other atheists. They can be dicks I hate just as much as theists. I do symphatize and identify with people who have suffered wrong from religion or were indoctrinated. I don't revere science and I don't like Dawkins, like, at all. He's a sillyhead. But I do appreciate more representation of atheists in mainstream media and hope it will help to dispel some misconceptions.
I think it's because the lack of a belief doesn't really say much about a person after all. Just looking around this board, we're all completely different and come from completely different backgrounds, with varying political and economical views. I just don't see atheism as a strong base for a culture. To bring up my favorite quote of Sam Harris again, it's just the noise rational people make in the presence of ridiculous religious claims (I'm paraphrasing).
That and New Atheism seems a tad cultish to me ._.
Quote:In German one would say "Hast Du einen an der Waffel?"
Quote:So, for me, there has to be something more than just that someone is an atheist for me to feel a special bond.
I understand completely - there is no guarantee that another atheist has the personality traits and shares the values that are most important to you just because she or he is an atheist. But that is also true for me and other Germans, and no one would deny that I am a part of a shared German culture. Similarly, as a western English speaking atheist today one likely shares some cultural symbols and knowledge with other atheists and therefore unwittingly is in a shared culture and community of the sort I describe above without necessarily realizing it or striving for it. It may not be so true for you, but I believe it is for many including myself, but I'm not sure which is why I asked the question.
Yes, what you say is consistent with other posts you have written in the past. You seem to be more social than I am, and more inclined to feel a sense of community with others than I am.
I do not mean for that to seem like either a compliment or an insult. Just a comment on how things seem to be, not a value judgement about them.
You are certainly correct that I do have some commonalties with other atheists, but that fact does not inspire the same feelings in me that it seems to inspire in you.
Somewhat off topic rambling is hidden:
When I visited Germany many years ago, I could not speak the language, and I enjoyed going for walks alone in small towns, just looking around, as it is enough different from the U.S. to be interesting, but without being frightening. The fact that I could not speak the language made it more of an adventure, because although many Germans speak English, many do not, and so if I encountered someone, I would not know in advance if I would be able to effectively speak with the person or not.
I was traveling with three other Americans, two of whom seemed to want things to be more like the U.S. than they were. To me, the whole point of going to a foreign land is to experience something different from what one experiences at home. If I wanted the experience of the U.S., I would just have stayed in the U.S. I also enjoyed speaking with the Germans I met, as I found them engaging and interesting. Of course, not speaking German at the time, I only really spoke with those who could speak English. In one small town, I met a young woman because she wanted to practice her English. I very much enjoyed her company.
The first German I really spoke with in Germany was a young woman of 17. Her English was superb, with just a very slight accent, just noticeable and which was so slight that it was no impediment to understanding her at all. I was quite impressed, and told her that she spoke English better than most Americans. She did not believe me, but I swear it was true. Her grammar, vocabulary, and pronunciation were all superb, like what one would expect from a very well-educated native speaker (other than the very slight German accent). I met her because my group was temporarily splitting up, and I was traveling with someone who did not speak German. The German speaker in my group, who was not going to be going on the train with me, spoke with the conductor of the train, who found the young woman who volunteered to help make sure we switched trains at the right place. So we had a nice chat on the train, which we would likely not have had if I spoke German. If I had been smart, I would have tried to get her name and contact information, but I was young and foolish. (I very much understand the statement, youth is wasted on the young, which I did not appreciate when I was young.) Anyway, I met other pleasant Germans later, and saw many interesting things, so the trip was a very nice vacation for me.
I enjoyed conversing with Germans partly because of some of the differences between us. I felt as connected to the people I met there as I generally do to people who live here. More so than with many people with whom I interact here. Some things in America are just crazy, whereas at least some of those things are sane in Germany. For example, the attitude toward alcohol. I am much more at home with Germans than with Americans when it comes to general attitudes towards alcohol. And nudity on broadcast TV. For the most part, with the differences I observed, I preferred the German attitudes over American attitudes.
Getting a little closer to the topic of this thread, I don't feel connected with religious people. Atheism is pretty much a requirement for me to feel much of a bond with someone, but it is only one of many things that are necessary. Being generally reasonable is important, as are kindness and honesty. These characteristics are more important to me than atheism per se, though I don't think theism is a reasonable position, and so it detracts from their reasonableness. But certain kinds of characteristics can be more enjoyable if they are different. And that is where the story of my trip to Germany fits in, as I very much liked the foreignness of the place. Likewise, I enjoyed my trip to Montreal. The native French speakers I met all seemed to fit into two categories, those who were put off by someone being a native speaker of English (for which I do not blame them, as they are surrounded by English speakers and there was talk a few years back of Canada trying to make everyone speak English), and those who were charming. I hope to go back some day, but, unfortunately, travel is expensive. Canada, though, is cheaper for me to visit than Europe, so maybe I will actually get back to Canada again (which I have visited several times, but only once to Quebec). The foreignness of the place is part of the attraction. My feelings toward the people are in no way harmed by such dissimilarities to me.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
I appreciate all the posts here. We're all very different. I, personally, wish for an atheist group in my area - I would like to feel the freedom to be myself and discuss things face-to-face without fear of retribution. I have heard that there are some. I'm still hunting.
I'm also learning alot re: people's opinions of various authors. Dawkins isn't exactly revered, Penn Jillette - - well, he comes across as a little pompous and extra snarky to me, too. My bet is that few would agree on an author who stands above the rest. As Atheists we have learned to fear "worship" in any form, haven't we?
But I give even Jillette respect. After all, he's putting himself out there. I wish I had the guts - and the inspiration - to add a book to the Atheist body of literature! We need all the rational voices we can get.
It would be nice if there was more Atheist comedy in print - anyone know of a good FUNNY book to suggest?
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
(July 29, 2015 at 9:20 am)Alex K Wrote: Now I also know that many of you are die-hard individuals who tend to e.g. reject any association with the usual popular figureheads of atheism, but still I wonder whether those of you don't also, deep down, feel they are part of a shared atheist (popular) culture which provides some sense of comfort and belonging to you even if you aren't a formal member of any org.
And what would that popular culture look like in your opinion? I'm asking because I would be hard pressed to find anything in my life relating to atheism other than my disbelief. The only thing coming to mind are instances where one belief or the other is sneaked into society at large. That may come in the form of politics, though in Europe we're mostly free of that. But it also comes in the form of tv shows, movies or books. And yes, they often come from the good old US of A. That's something I can't stomach and it relates to my general dislike of missionaries. But rest assured, as I repeatedly said, that dislike extends to atheist missionaries also. Which is also the main reason for not wanting to be associated with some of the more vocal prominent atheists.
(July 30, 2015 at 12:29 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I appreciate all the posts here. We're all very different. I, personally, wish for an atheist group in my area - I would like to feel the freedom to be myself and discuss things face-to-face without fear of retribution. I have heard that there are some. I'm still hunting.
...
Have you done an online search for atheist groups in your area? Depending on where you are, there may be one or more local groups. If you don't mind posting the name of the general area in which you live, others might be able to make suggestions, but don't post that if you are not comfortable doing so.
Try a search for:
atheist [name of your city/metropolitan area] [name of your state]
That might bring up what you want.
"A wise man ... proportions his belief to the evidence."
— David Hume, An Enquiry Concerning Human Understanding, Section X, Part I.
(July 30, 2015 at 12:29 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: I appreciate all the posts here. We're all very different. I, personally, wish for an atheist group in my area - I would like to feel the freedom to be myself and discuss things face-to-face without fear of retribution. I have heard that there are some. I'm still hunting.
...
Have you done an online search for atheist groups in your area? Depending on where you are, there may be one or more local groups. If you don't mind posting the name of the general area in which you live, others might be able to make suggestions, but don't post that if you are not comfortable doing so.
Try a search for:
atheist [name of your city/metropolitan area] [name of your state]
That might bring up what you want.
Thanks Pyrrho! Kind of you to take the time. I'm in the US Bible Belt. (sigh) I have found a couple of groups . . . now all I need is more time!
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
![[Image: Bumper+Sticker+-+Asheville+-+Praise+Dog3.JPG]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=1.bp.blogspot.com%2F-d-3rfdI7nG0%2FTerwtFyFXoI%2FAAAAAAAACak%2F7kFSmHeVrng%2Fs320%2FBumper%2BSticker%2B-%2BAsheville%2B-%2BPraise%2BDog3.JPG)
