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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 6:27 pm
(This post was last modified: August 5, 2015 at 6:28 pm by Javaman.)
(August 5, 2015 at 6:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 6:04 pm)Javaman Wrote: If rape is a million times more immoral than IVF, does that mean rapists will suffer a million times more than me in hell? If not, does that mean my crime of ejaculating into a test tube was as heinous as a man who raped a woman?
Why exactly is IVF immoral again? What is it about IVF that angers your god so much?
It is not my job to speculate on whether or not you or anyone else will go to Hell.
Well then, what does your Church teach? You seem to be rather persnickety about what it does or doesn't say on certain issues. Why not clarify for us all?
Will I suffer the same punishment in the afterlife as rapist because I masturbated into a test tube, thereby circumventing the unitive process in producing my two children?
What is the official Church doctrine on this issue? There's no need to speculate... simply tell me what your church has to say on the issue.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 6:30 pm
I vote A I have no children at 24 and I'm not sure I want them. That said meeting the right girl might change me. Or tell maybe just time and life will do that
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day,
To the last syllable of recorded time;
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player,
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage,
And then is heard no more. It is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 6:35 pm
This article is interesting, and I think it might throw the whole "childbirth is sacred" thing into a tailspin. I will say its amazing any of us get born, when the mother and fetus are constantly attacking each other.
http://aeon.co/magazine/science/pregnanc...-and-baby/
Quote:The cells of the human endometrium are tightly aligned, creating a fortress-like wall around the inside of the uterus. That barrier is packed with lethal immune cells. As far back as 1903, researchers observed embryos ‘invading’ and ‘digesting’ their way into the uterine lining. In 1914, R W Johnstone described the implantation zone as ‘the fighting line where the conflict between the maternal cells and the invading trophoderm takes place’. It was a battlefield ‘strewn with... the dead on both sides’.
I was always under the impression that the uterus was some sort of perfect fit for bringing life into the world, but in reality it's just there to prevent the death of the mother.
I can't remember where this verse is from, I think it got removed from canon:
"I don't hang around with mostly men because I'm gay. It's because men are better than women. Better trained, better equipped...better. Just better! I'm not gay."
For context, this is the previous verse:
"Hi Jesus" -robvalue
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 6:48 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Javaman Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 6:18 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It is not my job to speculate on whether or not you or anyone else will go to Hell.
Well then, what does your Church teach? You seem to be rather persnickety about what it does or doesn't say on certain issues. Why not clarify for us all?
Will I suffer the same punishment in the afterlife as rapist because I masturbated into a test tube, thereby circumventing the unitive process in producing my two children?
What is the official Church doctrine on this issue? There's no need to speculate... simply tell me what your church has to say on the issue.
1. The Church teaches that IVF is not moral.
2. I don't know. Just because something is not moral, does not mean the person who did it will go to Hell. There are many many factors that go along with it, and it is not my place to speculate. That's God's job.
3. "Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person." -CCC
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 6:59 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 6:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: 3. "Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person." -CCC
But this commits the fundamental error of assuming that the two people haven't been "giving themselves to one another" repeatedly for years with no procreative outcome. It also assumes that the only way in which two people can "give themselves to one another" is through the act of sex.
And why must the sexual act and the procreative act be associated at all?
Teenaged X-Files obsession + Bermuda Triangle episode + Self-led school research project = Atheist.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 7:00 pm
(This post was last modified: August 5, 2015 at 7:02 pm by Javaman.
Edit Reason: clarity
)
(August 5, 2015 at 6:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: (August 5, 2015 at 6:27 pm)Javaman Wrote: ...
1. The Church teaches that IVF is not moral.
2. I don't know. Just because something is not moral, does not mean the person who did it will go to Hell. There are many many factors that go along with it, and it is not my place to speculate. That's God's job.
3. "Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person." -CCC
1. "Just because" doesn't really answer my question.
2. If you don't know and, presumably, your church doesn't know, then why should anyone pay any attention to what they have to say? What are these factors that need to be considered?
3. Okay, so my sin is "less reprehensible". Maybe.
Still comes across as a load of presuppositionalist BS. It's still not clear whether I'll suffer as much in hell as a rapist because I masturbated into a test tube. Not sure why it's so hard for your church to figure out which is a worse act. I'm pretty sure anyone with a shred of common sense would have no difficulty determining which act is the greater crime.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 7:04 pm
A very strong B, although I somehow missed the memo on it being immoral to have kids (I guess overpopulation or something, which semi-makes sense).
"For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring." - Carl Sagan
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 7:04 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 6:48 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: 3. "Techniques involving only the married couple (homologous artificial insemination and fertilization) are perhaps less reprehensible, yet remain morally unacceptable. They dissociate the sexual act from the procreative act. The act which brings the child into existence is no longer an act by which two persons give themselves to one another, but one that "entrusts the life and identity of the embryo into the power of doctors and biologists and establishes the domination of technology over the origin and destiny of the human person." -CCC
I really hate that quote.
I was born via C-section, Is that not placing the power of doctors and the domination of technology over my origin and destiny?
When I was born, I was literally shaped like a pretzel. My hands were touching my own forearms, and my legs were entwined with themselves. Are not the 43 or so surgeries I've had to give me what function and mobility I have, in addition to all of the adaptive technology I need to use to have some semblance of a life, relying on the power of doctors and domination of technology over my origin and destiny?
IMO, there's a danger in fetishizing the 'normal' human body, especially when it's done at the expense of technology that helps people who weren't so lucky, whether they're infertile or have a disability. The reasoning you gave may be limited to IVF, but that in itself is a form of cherry picking. If the church has no problem with my existence, it really shouldn't have an issue with IVF. That it does only highlights how inconsistent they are when it comes to trying to regulate what people do with their own bodies.
I sincerely hope you think about this beyond "Well, the church and/or bible tells me this, so it must be so."
"I was thirsty for everything, but blood wasn't my style" - Live, "Voodoo Lady"
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 8:14 pm
I suppose it's hard to say this at only fourteen when so much more can happen in life to change my mind but I voted A. As of right now I want four kids, and I'd like to adopt them, both for the whole overpopulation thing and because I want three girls and a son. The girls because there aren't enough beautiful, intelligent, well minded girls in the world. I want a son so I can have guy to buddy around with.
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RE: atheism and children
August 5, 2015 at 8:17 pm
(August 5, 2015 at 11:17 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: So after starting this thread yesterday, I've noticed that a lot of atheists neither like children nor want them. Some even went as far as to say it's immoral to have them.
I've never met a group of people so anti kids lol. Most people want children or at least like them. I thought that was interesting/different and was curious to know how prevalent this sentiment actually was amongst atheists.
Please, only vote if you're an atheist:
A. I have children OR am currently open to having children (through adoption or otherwise) at some point in the future if things line up right.
B. I neither have NOR, as it stands, want children at any point in the future.
C. I adamantly did NOT want a child, ever, but ended up having one anyway by accident.
Thanks!  Atheists do favor abortion so I could understand why they don't like kids
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