atheism and children

[Catholic_Lady]

Fair enough. Some of your comments and the way you said things sounded condescending and like you were getting mad/frustrated, but perhaps I misunderstood. 

And I find your use of smilies to be sometimes rather condescending but the way you intend your smilies to be interpreted has no bearing on the content of your arguments so the point of commenting on them before now was neither here nor there.

You wanna chalk it up to the nature of online discussion forum anonymity and carry on?

Lol. Well for the record, the smilies to you are meant to express friendliness and to show that I am not angry. I am not using them sarcastically. Glad you brought that up so I could make that clear, but if it bothers you, I won't do it anymore. 

As for your question, it depends. If I feel I am being talked down to, I may stop responding if I start to get sick of it. You have the right to do the same, of course.

[Catholic_Lady]

Fair enough. Some of your comments and the way you said things sounded condescending and like you were getting mad/frustrated, but perhaps I misunderstood. 

And I find your use of smilies to be sometimes rather condescending but the way you intend your smilies to be interpreted has no bearing on the content of your arguments so the point of commenting on them before now was neither here nor there.

You wanna chalk it up to the nature of online discussion forum anonymity and carry on?

Eh, I don't think it's specific enough to just say "it's ok to kill someone who might kill you." It sounds way more open than what I actually believe, and can definitely be a different meaning. It can mean you can just go to someone's house and murder them in their sleep if you feel threatened by them. And that's not in line with what I believe. Sounds like it's just a matter of semantics though, so as long as you fully understand what I mean, that's fine. It sounds like you do.

I think we've both been reasonable enough to understand the the context in which the "it's acceptable to kill someone who might kill you" sentiment is being used in this discussion and it's not the "I can go murder someone in their sleep if I feel threatened by them" context.

I've said before that I'm not trying to trick you and this qualifies as one of those sorts of statements.

I think you're having a hard time understanding my views on this because you're not seeing "an embryo" as a human being. You have to understand that I do. So let's take a five year old, for example (whom I'm sure you see as human), and let's say I was his mother. If the both of us got captured by terrorists and as a means to torture me, they held a gun to my head and said "either you kill your five year old, or you both will die." Would it be moral for me to do it? Is it moral to directly kill one innocent person in order to save another?

That's a false analogy.

I think you are missing the point that in an ectopic pregnancy the embryo has to be aborted in order for the mother to survive at all, so if we put this in terms of your analogy it would be more like the terrorist telling the mother "I'm going to kill your kid no matter what, but you have a choice of either taking a cyanide pill or having me flay you alive" and even that doesn't work as a cogent analogy of an ectopic pregnancy.

(BTW, your analogy also equates the doctor treating the woman with the ectopic pregnancy to a terrorist.   )

I'm not saying they realize they're doing it, or that they understand what they're doing. But nonetheless, a person running after you with a knife, trying to stab you to death, is still a person running after you with a knife trying to stab you to death.

We're not talking about what weapon this mentally impaired innocent might use against you, if they even have an implement in their hand at all, we're talk about intent.  I understand you to have said that an embryo in an ectopic pregnancy doesn't intend to kill its mother, therefore the mother/doctor is not justified in directly aborting it.  Well, likewise, the innocent doesn't intend to kill their victim, so why is it acceptable (again, to use your words, "tragic not immoral") to directly kill the innocent but not the embryo?

It's up to the jury to figure out if this person is innocent for reason of insanity or not, but you still have the right to defend yourself against someone who is trying to murder you, even if they're insane and don't even realize they're doing it.

Wait, what??  Now this innocent is committing murder?  You do realize that "murder" means that the death was premeditated, right??  It means that the person who caused the death had to plan the death or intend to kill (in legal terms it's called "malice aforethought").  So how can a person who doesn't understand what they're doing or understand the consequences of their actions murder someone?

[Catholic_Lady]

I think you're having a hard time understanding my views on this because you're not seeing "an embryo" as a human being. You have to understand that I do. So let's take a five year old, for example (whom I'm sure you see as human), and let's say I was his mother. If the both of us got captured by terrorists and as a means to torture me, they held a gun to my head and said "either you kill your five year old, or you both will die." Would it be moral for me to do it? Is it moral to directly kill one innocent person in order to save another?

That's a false analogy.

I think you are missing the point that in an ectopic pregnancy the embryo has to be aborted in order for the mother to survive at all, so if we put this in terms of your analogy it would be more like the terrorist telling the mother "I'm going to kill your kid no matter what, but you have a choice of either taking a cyanide pill or having me flay you alive" and even that doesn't work as a cogent analogy of an ectopic pregnancy.

(BTW, your analogy also equates the doctor treating the woman with the ectopic pregnancy to a terrorist.   )

Perhaps you misunderstood the analogy. I am saying that the terrorists would kill both her and her child if she did not kill her child herself. So yes, the child would die regardless. It just depends on whether she does it or not. And if she does, she gets to live. If not, she dies right along with her kid.

[Catholic_Lady]

I'm not saying they realize they're doing it, or that they understand what they're doing. But nonetheless, a person running after you with a knife, trying to stab you to death, is still a person running after you with a knife trying to stab you to death.

We're not talking about what weapon this mentally impaired innocent might use against you, if they even have an implement in their hand at all, we're talk about intent.  I understand you to have said that an embryo in an ectopic pregnancy doesn't intend to kill its mother, therefore the mother/doctor is not justified in directly aborting it.  Well, likewise, the innocent doesn't intend to kill their victim, so why is it acceptable (again, to use your words, "tragic not immoral") to directly kill the innocent but not the embryo?

Well obviously it's not about the weapon. I was using an example of a scenario. When a person is coming after you, trying to kill you, you have the right to defend yourself regardless of whether or not that person is consciously aware of the fact that they are trying to kill you. That is up for the courts and medical professionals to decide. I have already explained that I think this is different from a baby growing in the wrong place. Don't know what else to tell ya if you honestly don't see the difference that I see.

[Catholic_Lady]

It's up to the jury to figure out if this person is innocent for reason of insanity or not, but you still have the right to defend yourself against someone who is trying to murder you, even if they're insane and don't even realize they're doing it.

Wait, what??  Now this innocent is committing murder?  You do realize that "murder" means that the death was premeditated, right??  It means that the person who caused the death had to plan the death or intend to kill (in legal terms it's called "malice aforethought").  So how can a person who doesn't understand what they're doing or understand the consequences of their actions murder someone?

I think you know what I mean, but let me rephrase it for you then:

It's up to the jury to figure out if this person is innocent for reason of insanity or not, but you still have the right to defend yourself against someone who is trying to kill you, even if they're insane and don't even realize they're doing it.

[MTL]

There is actually a movement, it's called the "Anti-Natalist Movement".  You can look it up.


I have never wanted children;
I think I would be an excellent mother if I chose to become such;
but and I am very skeptical that having children at this point in the Earth's existence
is a good idea or responsible thing to really do;
and I really think a more adult lifestyle suits me better, ultimately.

however I don't hate children; I have a little nephew and he cracks me up, and he's so smart.

And, I am not without the "wishful" side of it:

I wish I could believe having kids was a good idea;
I wish I could have kids, but still have the lifestyle that suits me,
and know those kids would never get sick or hurt,
and would always be safe and happy...


I also wish I could get married and have the white picket fence and knight in shining armour, too,
who would never have eyes for any other woman,
nor would he ever disappoint me in any way....


and I wish Santa Claus really existed...

and I also wish that there really WAS a loving, benevolent God out there,
and I wish that there WAS actually one book that told us exactly what we wanted to know about Him,
and I wish that prayers might actually be reliably answered...

...but just because I wish for these things, doesn't mean I am going to pull the wool over my own eyes
and pretend that they exist, when they really don't.

[Catholic_Lady]

I think you're having a hard time understanding my views on this because you're not seeing "an embryo" as a human being. You have to understand that I do. So let's take a five year old, for example (whom I'm sure you see as human), and let's say I was his mother. If the both of us got captured by terrorists and as a means to torture me, they held a gun to my head and said "either you kill your five year old, or you both will die." Would it be moral for me to do it? Is it moral to directly kill one innocent person in order to save another?

That's a false analogy.

I think you are missing the point that in an ectopic pregnancy the embryo has to be aborted in order for the mother to survive at all, so if we put this in terms of your analogy it would be more like the terrorist telling the mother "I'm going to kill your kid no matter what, but you have a choice of either taking a cyanide pill or having me flay you alive" and even that doesn't work as a cogent analogy of an ectopic pregnancy.

(BTW, your analogy also equates the doctor treating the woman with the ectopic pregnancy to a terrorist.   )

My bold.

Not sure how I missed the bolded part before, but it is incorrect. 

The terrorists in my analogy are being compared to the ectopic disorder itself, not with the doctor. But that is not the point of my analogy, anyway. The point was simply to show that I believe it is immoral to kill an innocent child, even if that child would die anyway and you would die right along with him if you didn't.

[Clueless Morgan]

GAAA!!! CL!!

I had a brilliant post all typed out, it was brilliant I say!!

It would have turned you into a pro-choice atheist and we'd have nothing left to disagree about and we would have become forum besties forevah!!

But I accidentally hit the backspace button which temporarily decided it was the "you want to go back to the last page you visited" button AND I LOST THE WHOLE POST!!!



I have to disconnect my computer and do a whole bunch of updates and file transfers today, but hopefully I can recreate the magic of that last post for you.

Until then, lament for me.

[The Grand Nudger]

I have 5, I'd have more if I could swing it emotionally, financially, or practically (time management man....little bastards are a sink). Kind of a cultural thing though, crosses all religious boundaries...people in the US are having fewer children, on average - and they're having them later in life. Not a damned thing to do with atheism, so good luck chasing that unicorn.

[Celestine]

I do not want a child of my own. I have no need to make someone of my blood, rather should I desire to raise a child in the archaic fashion, which I do not support by the way, but if I chose to I would decide to adopt one or more.