Hello, i am a real Christian

[Shinylight]

The truth cannot be voted on.

Learn this, True Christian.

EvF

I guess ill try one last time, because it seems you only read what you want to read. The Church does not have a divine status because lots of people believe in it. It does because it is the oldest religious organization we ever known, out of thousand of religions.

Kama Chinen is the oldest living person out of Billions not just thousands, does she have divine status, I doubt it.

[Edwardo Piet]

True Christian, I have already said more than a few times that whether it's long lasting/flourishing/popularity it's all just as equally a bullshit argument. The fact that Catholicism is long lasting/flourishes is no more evidence for its divinity than the fact there are so many followers and it's popular. I've already covered this.

I know i will be called as generalizing by saying that, but i have observed that in this thread: don't you think that sometimes, just sometimes, you jump on certain keywords and ignore the rest of the text ?

Like you ignored the fact that I made it clear that I was arguing against the longevity and flourishing of Catholicism that you mentioned just as much as the idea of its popularity as I mentioned above? I wouldn't say you did that deliberately though.

And if the Catholic Church isn't long lived and flourishing because of it's popular, then I guess it's also because of its using fear to push people into it's faith, and it's Crusades in the past? And I guess the flourishing can also partly be because of all the money it takes in?

I guess you're right - it's flourishing and longevity isn't all down to popularity. But MY point is that all 3, popularity, flourishing, longevity are not evidence of divinity. And so the fact that you want to be petty and tell me that you aren't arguing that popularity gives evidence of divinity is irrelevant. Because I've already covered all 3, I'm not just singling out on popularity, I'm saying all 3, popularity, flourishing, longevity of the above are equally nonsense bullshit arguments for divinity.

And, speaking for myself I certainly never deliberately miss relevant bits out anyway.

EvF

[Paul the Human]

The Church does not have a divine status because lots of people believe in it.

That is a true statement.

It does because it is the oldest religious organization we ever known, out of thousand of religions.

That is not a true statement. You seem to have trouble seeing the difference. Simply being the oldest religious organization ever known (if it actually is), does not mean that it is divinely inspired. It only means that it is the oldest religious organization. Success =/= True.

Seriously, this horse is long dead. Please stop beating the poor thing.

[Thor]

I guess ill try one last time, because it seems you only read what you want to read. The Church does not have a divine status because lots of people believe in it. It does because it is the oldest religious organization we ever known, out of thousand of religions.

Paganism predates Christianity. As does Judaism.

What else ya got, genius?

[Welsh cake]

Alright, here is the reason i think what i think: there is no evidence for the Old Testament. However there is evidence for Jesus as the Gospels are a collection of testimonies from Jesus' time.

I don't quite follow; the Old Testament exists, god as a fictional character, concept, or mental construct exists. No one is disputing that.

Well no i believe in the God of the New Testament, a god of love and peace, and when i look at the God from the Old testament it is clear that they are not the same being. I believe in the NT God because to me, the Gospels depict a true story, and the fact that the Church has existed for 2000 years, being the longest existing organization in the world, is to me a testimony of that.

You can disprove some of the facts written in the Old Testament. However there is no disproval of what is written in the New Testament. I know it is physically highly unlikely, but it has not be proven to be impossible.

And before you talk about unicorns and fairies, there is no "evidence" for them as there is for Jesus in the form of the Gospels.

The burden of proof here is not on atheists. Prove what the New Testament claims about an infinite cosmic-creator deity is actually demonstrably real first.

[Minimalist]

simply means that christianity is the oldest organised religion, and nothing else.

Depends on how you want to define "organized", I guess.

There are still Zoroastrians in the world. They pre-date xtianity by centuries, at least.

[Loki_999]

Some see "religion has done good things" and instantly attack me as saying that religion hasn't done bad things, something i never claimed, without ever thinking about whether or not religion has actually done some good. Some see "Church" and "divine" together and immediately attack me for saying that what everyone believes is the truth, something i never claimed.

I think the problem is that the Church(es) like to show themselves as being holier-than-thou and only being made of light, and they don't like to admit to being down in the mud. After all, the crusades were pretty shitty things to do to the then existing inhabitants of the "holy lands". The diplomatic thing would have been to approach the rulers of these lands and say, hey, these lands are holy to us, would you mind like, if our people could have free passage to make pilgrmiages to the holy sites... you could even open tourist shops en-route, and after all, we do worship the same god, just a small difference about prophets.... no, war was much for interesting for the church.

So, basically, people here are indeed only to willing to point out that the church is not as good as it likes to think.

The church has done many good things in its history, and so have non-religious people and organizations. However, in terms of pure evil and pain and suffering caused I think the catholic church rival Microsoft!!! hock: And this does not actually cover the evil of teaching people they are sinners and will go to hell if they do not follow the rules of the church... not very nice at all.

People believing in (and worshiping) supernatural deities is a personal choice which I can accept even while I laugh. Organized religions on the other hand are no laughing matter and I believe that the human race would be much better off without them.

[tackattack]

Judaism does indeed predate Christianity, and while it doens't have the centralized authority today that christianity has, it is indeed a long-standing religious institution.

@Loki thank you for at least addressing his other point. Brainwashing to do good deeds aside, I agree institutionalized religion at the very least needs a overhaul. Let's just say it's possible to abolish all organized religion what would be left with as a society? I think a lot less good things, IMO. I'll just leave it at I'd rather have society guided by principles of acceptance, tolerance and a sense of morality dictated by doctrine (not whim) than a skeptical, sinical society ruled by limted vision and science.

Note for responce: I did not reference atheism in any of the above post.

[tavarish]

Let's just say it's possible to abolish all organized religion what would be left with as a society? I think a lot less good things, IMO.

No more suicide bombings and children dying because of the power of prayer would be a good example. Perhaps kids getting fucked by members of the church and genital mutilation practices would be abolished as well. And maybe we can even get rid of Sharia Law and make sure girls who get raped don't get punished for it.

But a lot less good things...yea.

I'll just leave it at I'd rather have society guided by principles of acceptance, tolerance and a sense of morality dictated by doctrine (not whim) than a skeptical, sinical society ruled by limted vision and science.

Then go live in Iran or Tribal Afghanistan - they have everything you listed. Everything that you enjoy today is because of modern science - based on skepticism and doubt. Don't feed me this garbage that the world needs religion to behave. It's demonstrably false. It's no secret that the least religious nations are doing the best economically and developmentally, not to mention they give more to charities than their more religious counterparts.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'll just leave it at I'd rather have society guided by principles of acceptance, tolerance and a sense of morality dictated by doctrine (not whim) than a skeptical, sinical society ruled by limted vision and science.

Ever heard of ethical philosophy? You can have moral principles that aren't on a 'whim' without a load of religious bullshit attached to it y'know. Ethical philosophy actually thinks about ethics and studies it, as opposed to just agreeing with whatever is written in ancient scripture you happen to take a liking to.

There is nothing that religion gives you that's positive that you can't have without it - in secular society. However, there is a lot of bullshit in religion indeed - and if believed it can be merely an irrational placebo at best, and dangerous irrational bullshit at worst IMO.

EvF