DEBUNKING THE CONSPIRACY THEORY

[LastPoet]

I think Randy went online in search of more bullshit to throw at us after his Word document of the same ran out. It is good exercise to younger atheists learn the playing chess with a pigeon allegory.

[Minimalist]

Many people believe that the Apostles knew that Jesus

Who, fuckhead? 

I'm tired of your strawman shit.  Name your sources or shut the fuck up.  Let's see how far you get after Acharya S.

[KevinM1]

I think Randy went online in search of more bullshit to throw at us after his Word document of the same ran out. It is good exercise to younger atheists learn the playing chess with a pigeon allegory.

Yup.  It definitely appears as though Randy thinks his five 'facts' argument is his magic bullet, and spent some time away attempting to find another way to twist it so we accept it.  Typical apologist BS, having a conclusion they want to push and working backwards from there.

[Homeless Nutter]

...this is gonna turn into another 100+ page thread where Randy continuously reiterates his claims as though they're also the proof of those claims, resulting in his insufferably smug "checkmate atheists" attitude for the entire thing, isn't it?

They don't call him Randy "Deja Vu" Carson for nothing...

[Minimalist]

Randy thinks his five 'facts' argument is his magic bullet

You can't blame Randy for that....he's just one more mental midget who has been swayed by that con artist Habermas.  Randy, though, does seem impervious to facts.  Wouldn't know one if it bit him on the ass.

[Esquilax]

I always love these sorts of apologetics, like little echo chambers, where the apologist presents a simplified version of a contention with his position, and then a list of highly massaged talking points, each one specifically arranged for the apologist to knock down. When he's done painting bullseyes around his bullet holes- all conspicuously without any input from people who actually hold the position he's purporting to rebut- the apologist somehow has it in his head that he's proven his point, rather than just his ability to arrange facsimiles of counterpositions such that his talking points "rebuts" them. It's almost cute, watching them think that going entirely negative in their arguments can add up to positive evidence. So much of apologetics is just about shitting on the real work of others

[Jenny A]

It's impossible to 'rise' from the dead until it's proven beyond doubt that it's not. Until then, it's all nonsense.

The end.

What is your explanation for the five minimal facts (accepted by atheist and theist scholars alike) which we examined here?

Even if they were established as fact:

1. Jesus died by crucifixion
2. Jesus' disciples believed that He rose and appeared to them
3. Saul, the persecutor of the Church, was suddenly changed
4. James, the skeptical brother of Jesus, was suddenly changed
5. Jesus' tomb was found to be empty

These five statements need no explanation.  People, like the disciples and Paul believe a whole number of wacky things: alien abductions, UFO conspiracies, The Book of Mormon, you name it.  And those wacky beliefs can change lives.  But they don't prove anything.  Empty tombs even if he were buried in a tomb (doubtful) are most likely the result of someone moving the body.

Just to anticipate:  this is where you invariably bring in exact details about the above five contentions.  Let's be clear, the "facts" don't include details.  There are no details.  The scholars do not agree about the details.  You can't use them while claiming a minimal fact approach.

The disciples are not people we know much of anything about, not their number, not their names.  Those contentions don't say which disciples, believed when or why, or when, why, or how they told anyone. "Changed" is a rather amorphous concept meaning approximately nothing.  When and where and which tomb by whom, are not part of your "facts."

[brewer]

You guys need to stop. I'm running out of kudos!

[Nope]

http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/04/14/waco.koresh.believers/

Apparently, there are still followers of David Koresh who believe he was god. People can believe in and die for a lie that they believe is true.

[Longhorn]

Oh, Randy......