Neil Degrasse Tyson

[Confused Ape]

Good for them. Those are all individual little groups, not indicative of atheism as a whole.  I don't belong to any of those groups.

I don't belong to any of those groups either. The thing is, these are the atheists who get noticed and many people have got the impression that this is what being an atheist is all about.

[Cephus]

Fine Cephus, can I then argue that because most Christians in Europe don't go to church except for weddings and funerals therefore the Church isn't Christianity?

You're just skipping questions and giving incoherent answers, no one is saying that most atheists are a part of those groups, but those aren't fringe insignificant institutions but they have some degree of influence because of supporters, etc. No one is saying that is indicative of what atheism is, but it is indicative that atheists can organize institutionally as well, even if there isn't a bible you can make shit up as you go along

I'd agree with you that the individuals probably aren't, most people in Europe don't really believe in gods, their limited church activity is social, not religious.  Of course, the churches only exist to push a particular religious view so clearly, they are religious in nature.

But you can't really point to organizations that clearly only represent a minuscule minority of atheists and pretend that their mission statement describes them all.  I think American Atheists is one of, if not the largest atheist group in the country, but they only have 2200 members.  Why do you think this tiny little group gets to speak for millions of atheists?  That's like saying that the Million Moms, a tiny group of people working in a basement at the American Family Association, actually represents the interests of half of the people in America.  That's just idiotic.

[Cephus]

Good for them. Those are all individual little groups, not indicative of atheism as a whole.  I don't belong to any of those groups.

I don't belong to any of those groups either.  The thing is, these are the atheists who get noticed and many people have got the impression that this is what being an atheist is all about.

Yup, but Westboro Baptist Church gets noticed too and they're only a handful of people, not representative of the overwhelming majority of American Christians.  So are we supposed to think that picketing funerals and making asses of themselves constitutes a Christian movement in America?

[Dystopia]

Fine Cephus, can I then argue that because most Christians in Europe don't go to church except for weddings and funerals therefore the Church isn't Christianity?

You're just skipping questions and giving incoherent answers, no one is saying that most atheists are a part of those groups, but those aren't fringe insignificant institutions but they have some degree of influence because of supporters, etc. No one is saying that is indicative of what atheism is, but it is indicative that atheists can organize institutionally as well, even if there isn't a bible you can make shit up as you go along

I'd agree with you that the individuals probably aren't, most people in Europe don't really believe in gods, their limited church activity is social, not religious.  Of course, the churches only exist to push a particular religious view so clearly, they are religious in nature.

But you can't really point to organizations that clearly only represent a minuscule minority of atheists and pretend that their mission statement describes them all.  I think American Atheists is one of, if not the largest atheist group in the country, but they only have 2200 members.  Why do you think this tiny little group gets to speak for millions of atheists?  That's like saying that the Million Moms, a tiny group of people working in a basement at the American Family Association, actually represents the interests of half of the people in America.  That's just idiotic.

I don't - And that's the thing, I'm not saying they represent our interests, personally they don't represent mine as I'm not even American - I'm just saying that there's something we can all atheist activism and Mr. Tyson probably does not want to be associated with it because it may be bad for his image. Being a "celebrity" can be though

[Cephus]

I'd agree with you that the individuals probably aren't, most people in Europe don't really believe in gods, their limited church activity is social, not religious.  Of course, the churches only exist to push a particular religious view so clearly, they are religious in nature.

But you can't really point to organizations that clearly only represent a minuscule minority of atheists and pretend that their mission statement describes them all.  I think American Atheists is one of, if not the largest atheist group in the country, but they only have 2200 members.  Why do you think this tiny little group gets to speak for millions of atheists?  That's like saying that the Million Moms, a tiny group of people working in a basement at the American Family Association, actually represents the interests of half of the people in America.  That's just idiotic.

I don't - And that's the thing, I'm not saying they represent our interests, personally they don't represent mine as I'm not even American - I'm just saying that there's something we can all atheist activism and Mr. Tyson probably does not want to be associated with it because it may be bad for his image. Being a "celebrity" can be though

But there's a difference between activism carried out by a few atheists and atheist activism.  If it isn't representative of atheism as a whole, or at least as a majority, then it's just a couple of people doing things on their own.  Just like the Westboro Baptists are not engaged in Christian activism that represents the whole of Christianity, they are a couple of wingnuts with signs that are not considered credible by the majority.  Now I can't speak for what Tyson does or does not want to be associated with, that's up to him, just like it's up to me whether or not I choose to join any of these atheist groups and engage in their particular versions of activism.  Their actions, especially because I am not members of their groups, ought not reflect on me in any way  because I'm not involved.

[Confused Ape]

Yup, but Westboro Baptist Church gets noticed too and they're only a handful of people, not representative of the overwhelming majority of American Christians.  So are we supposed to think that picketing funerals and making asses of themselves constitutes a Christian movement in America?

The atheist activists are campaigning for things like the separation of church and state and removing intelligent design from school science classes etc. Here is an example of what many American Christians feel about this because the campaigns affect them.

A Message To Atheist Activists Warring Against Christ This Holiday Season

It seems not a day goes by when the Freedom From Religion Foundation or some other atheist, secularist or humanist group isn't attacking a Christian prayer meeting, demanding the take down of a nativity scene or working to ban some other form of Christian expression. Indeed, the war on Christmas is raging even now.

American Christians aren't looking to trample your rights to believe (or not believe) whatever you want to believe (or not believe). So why are some atheist activists so driven to wage war against all things Christian each and every Christmas season? And why does that battle have to continue throughout the year at football games and other public events where Christians simply want to display a Bible verse on a sign? Why are you fighting so hard against a God you don't believe exists?

The Westboro Baptist Church, on the other hand, is just an embarrassment to most Christians.

[Cephus]

Yup, but Westboro Baptist Church gets noticed too and they're only a handful of people, not representative of the overwhelming majority of American Christians.  So are we supposed to think that picketing funerals and making asses of themselves constitutes a Christian movement in America?

The atheist activists are campaigning for things like the separation of church and state and removing intelligent design from school science classes etc. Here is an example of what many American Christians feel about this because the campaigns affect them.

A Message To Atheist Activists Warring Against Christ This Holiday Season

I really don't care what the American Christians think to be perfectly honest. American Christianity, indeed, most religion, is based on the idea of paranoia, that everyone is out to get them, that the devil is hiding behind every tree, just waiting for them to slip up so their souls fall into eternal perdition. You want to know why Christians have their panties in a bunch? Because they used to have a lot of undeserved power and now that power is gone and they desperately want it back. Christmas used to be their holiday. Now it's not, in fact, now it's almost entirely secular. They don't like that. They used to be able to get away with sectarian religious displays on public property. Now they can't and they're pissed. These are things they should never have been able to do. They could. Now they can't. They're playing it as discrimination. In actuality, it's making things the way they should have been all along.

It seems not a day goes by when the Freedom From Religion Foundation or some other atheist, secularist or humanist group isn't attacking a Christian prayer meeting, demanding the take down of a nativity scene or working to ban some other form of Christian expression. Indeed, the war on Christmas is raging even now.

American Christians aren't looking to trample your rights to believe (or not believe) whatever you want to believe (or not believe). So why are some atheist activists so driven to wage war against all things Christian each and every Christmas season? And why does that battle have to continue throughout the year at football games and other public events where Christians simply want to display a Bible verse on a sign? Why are you fighting so hard against a God you don't believe exists?

The Westboro Baptist Church, on the other hand, is just an embarrassment to most Christians.

I agree with you. There are a lot of things that I think ostensibly atheist organizations out there are doing that I find an embarrassment to atheism, but I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me and everyone has the freedom to do what they want to do without having an effect on others.

[Shuffle]

It's a wikipedia article that anyone can say anything they want in.  I have never met an atheist who identified as a "new atheist", in fact, the whole idea is widely decried amongst most atheists.

[Dystopia]

It's a wikipedia article that anyone can say anything they want in.  I have never met an atheist who identified as a "new atheist", in fact, the whole idea is widely decried amongst most atheists.

The thing is that it doesn't matter what you call yourself - The term was coined to describe a wave of atheist writers and supporters who defended certain ideas like that religion should be ridiculed, set aside, that atheism could be compatible with agnosticism and doesn't need a positive premise, etc - New Atheism is merely the term that describes the movement, the fact most people don't identify as such doesn't mean they are not such. I wouldn't hesitate to say a significant part of AF populations (on all forums not just here) is strongly influenced by new atheism and partially supports sects of the movement, including myself to some degree. There's many people here who've read books by Dawkins and other writers who are the most important figures in the movement, so there's a noticeable influence in people's rhetoric, arguments and generally the way they treat and debate theists.

Is it widely decried? Really? Yes, probably by the same people who buy atheist t shirts and post pictures on facebook about the recent copy of The God Delusion on X translation and how awesome it is and constantly post something on how much they think religion is stupid and they are always rational - This is a caricature but you get the picture. I wouldn't use the argument that atheism is just a lack of belief in god as a sort of escape mechanism because DICTIONARIES CHANGE and you never know what will be on it in the next 10-50 years - If we want atheism to remain just a lack of belief in god or a gnostic claim about god's existence then we should strongly criticize organized atheism, atheist institutions and atheist books and lectures.

[Confused Ape]

 You want to know why Christians have their panties in a bunch?  Because they used to have a lot of undeserved power and now that power is gone and they desperately want it back.  Christmas used to be their holiday.  Now it's not, in fact, now it's almost entirely secular.  They don't like that.  They used to be able to get away with sectarian religious displays on public property.  Now they can't and they're pissed.  These are things they should never have been able to do.  They could.  Now they can't.  They're playing it as discrimination.  In actuality, it's making things the way they should have been all along.

You missed the point of my post. Christians have got their panties in a bunch because of the atheists, humanists and secularists who are activists.

There are a lot of things that I think ostensibly atheist organizations out there are doing that I find an embarrassment to atheism, but I don't speak for them, they don't speak for me and everyone has the freedom to do what they want to do without having an effect on others.

So, you've finally agreed that there are atheist organisations whose members are activists. They don't speak for you but there are people out there who will assume that the activists do speak for you.

Which brings us back to NDT. From what he said in the video he doesn't want people assuming that he campaigns to get nativity scenes removed from public places etc.