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(June 26, 2010 at 4:07 am)tavarish Wrote: Is whatever God says moral? or is God just commanding already moral actions?
Perhaps some help here tarvish.....
Their god /dog says that it is OK to rape young children, murder their mothers and totally wipe out and entire socio political system...THESE are their 'morals' after all ...it is written in their holey book. Which ever one of the three they wish to cite from.
The 'Commands (moral or not)' are what ever they decide are expedient at the time......aka what ever saves their collective arses from scrutiny and sheds no light on their 'souls'...
They live in primitive darkness for all that they think that they have "seen the light".....
And you're missing the point completely. This has nothing to do with specific commands or interpretations.
(June 26, 2010 at 4:07 am)tavarish Wrote: Is whatever God says moral? or is God just commanding already moral actions?
Perhaps some help here tarvish.....
Their god /dog says that it is OK to rape young children, murder their mothers and totally wipe out and entire socio political system...THESE are their 'morals' after all ...it is written in their holey book. Which ever one of the three they wish to cite from.
The 'Commands (moral or not)' are what ever they decide are expedient at the time......aka what ever saves their collective arses from scrutiny and sheds no light on their 'souls'...
They live in primitive darkness for all that they think that they have "seen the light".....
And you're missing the point completely. This has nothing to do with specific commands or interpretations.
So sorry to intrude tav
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(June 26, 2010 at 3:49 am)tackattack Wrote: LOL, ok so the arguement presented for the self evidence of the universe originally left out demonstratability.
No it didn't.
I wrote:
The universe - meaning reality as demonstrated by our environment - is self evident.
(June 26, 2010 at 3:49 am)tackattack Wrote: Aside from a little uproar then, what you're actually demonstrating are the laws, axioms and fundamental characteristics of the universe, that lead to it's demonstratability not actually demonstrating the universe as a whole.
How is the demonstrability of universal laws and fundamental characteristics of the universe NOT actually demonstrating the universe?
If I demonstrate that the characteristics of an apple exist, am I not demonstrating that the apple exists?
Existence isn't an attribute - it's the thing to which attributes apply.
(June 26, 2010 at 3:49 am)tackattack Wrote: So something is self evident if it conforms to a universal definition amongst consenting individuals and it's attributes are demonstrable is that about it?
Not necessarily, but in this case, such an assessment would apply. I also assume you're talking about our perception of the universe and not the universe itself.
(June 25, 2010 at 2:52 am)tackattack Wrote: No he's not the basis, but the yardstick by which I measure mine.
OK.
Is whatever God says moral? or is God just commanding already moral actions?
So it did I went back and reread, thanks for pointing that out sorry I missed it. Yes I'm obviously talking about our perception of the universe. To answer you question, To an individual, when one can distinguish God's command rather than satan's or the self then what God commands by his very nature is moral. I don't think he does the command thing anymore, he make "speak" or "move" our spirit, but the days of tablets on the mountain are over I believe. God's moral's could be in line with our own personal morals, so it might seem like he's simply commanding already moral action. Typically though our fall short of his, and also aren't as consistant as his.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
So it did I went back and reread, thanks for pointing that out sorry I missed it. Yes I'm obviously talking about our perception of the universe. To answer you question, To an individual, when one can distinguish God's command rather than satan's or the self then what God commands by his very nature is moral. I don't think he does the command thing anymore, he make "speak" or "move" our spirit, but the days of tablets on the mountain are over I believe. God's moral's could be in line with our own personal morals, so it might seem like he's simply commanding already moral action. Typically though our fall short of his, and also aren't as consistant as his.
[/quote]
How do you know that god is the 'good' one might it not just have better PR than satan.
I mean all you've got to go by is its advertising booklet.
(June 30, 2010 at 3:10 pm)downbeatplumb Wrote: How do you know that god is the 'good' one might it not just have better PR than satan.
I mean all you've got to go by is its advertising booklet.
This is a question I've often asked! How do we really know that "God" is good? Because the Bible says so! But look at all the horrors committed in the Bible by this deity! Could "Satan" have done any worse than killing every living thing on the planet (with the exception of a handful of people)? Imagine if Hitler had won WWII. He could have written a book telling the world how "good" he is. And when anyone asked about the horrors of the Holocaust, or how he treated his enemies, people could just say that Hitler "had his reasons", and that what he did was "for the greater good", and "we're too stupid to understand the magnificence that is Hitler".
What cracks me up is that the Babble is full of stories where "God" kills (or directs others to kill) mostly innocent people. There is nothing in the Babble where "Satan" kills anyone! And yet, people consider "God" to be all that is good and loving!
Seems to me that "Satan" needs a better press agent.
Science flies us to the moon and stars. Religion flies us into buildings.
God allowed 200,000 people to die in an earthquake. So what makes you think he cares about YOUR problems?
I have a deist argument for the existence of God that atheists will probably find wholly unconvincing but, unlike other deist arguments, it is guaranteed not to be hijacked by Christian or Muslim apologists any time soon.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
(June 30, 2010 at 4:38 pm)Purple Rabbit Wrote: Argumentum ad reposting?
Oops, did I already post this? Sorry!
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
@Thor & dpb-I don't know that God is the "good one". If I didn't have God 's laws written on my heart and the Holy Spirit, then I'd only have the Bible to go off of. I'd probably then think God as an awful lot like a human dictator. I believe he's good because he's never done anything bad to me personally. He's guided and directed me towards a better life, deeper love, and stronger peace and provided for my every need. Why would I not see him as good?
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
