Perplexed by this argument from a fundie friend

[xangelusx]

I must preface this by saying that I wrote it off-the-cuff and some of it was just rambling free thinking.

I have an old friend with whom I attended church as a child. Decades later I am now an atheist, and she a 7th Day Adventist - we couldn't have more polarized views But we both love to debate each other and we keep it very friendly.

In any case, she brought up a point this morning that had me at odds with myself. Here was what she said:

President Obama has directed the United States Postal Service to REMEMBER and HONOR the EID MUSLIM holiday season with a new commemorative 44-Cent First Class Holiday Postage Stamp. True? So per Obama we can't do National Day of Prayer but we can honor Muslim holidays with no problem?

Now, I haven't fact checked that statement yet, so I don't know if the stamp thing is true. But whether it is or is not is irrelevant to my problem, so lets assume that it's true for the sake of the argument. (Also irrelevant is the fact that Obama didn't cancel the NDoP, but rather a judge declared it unconstitutional.)

I agree that the NDoP is unconstitutional. Calling for a national recognition of something implies that it is an inherent part of American culture, and in the case of the NDoP that is simply not the case. Since prayer is a religious observation (secularists may hope for something, but they wouldn't pray) then the NDoP presumes that all Americans are religious and that we are a theocratic society, which of course is false. (Preaching to the choir, I know.)

So my problem is this: Does the printing of a postal stamp (and keeping in mind that the USPS is a government institution) count as a national recognition of the subject? Or is it simply a celebration of something? After all, we have Elvis stamps and science stamps and bird stamps. As far as I know Jesus has never been on a stamp, but menorahs and Christmas trees certainly have. So we could say that a stamp is not a national recognition (Elvis may be an American icon, but he is clearly not representative of all Americans). One could even argue that we are free to use any stamp that we choose, and we are not forced to use religious stamps even if they are available.

OK, but then doesn't that argument also extend to the NDoP? We are free to not pray if we so choose. Any secularist worth his soulless husk will argue that prayer has no impact aside from a psychosomatic response, so what's the harm? OK, OK... I know it only supports the view that America is a Christian nation, and blah blah blah. So then lets take the argument the other way.

Should we ban the printing of any stamp that could be construed as having religious connotations? Some cultures worship the Sun, so should we not have a stamp with a sunny beach on it? What about Christmas? Should we cancel the national observation of Christmas? I know that it has pre-christian roots and plenty of post-christian elements, but it is widely recognized as a christian holiday. So no more christmas tree stamps? (I'm an atheist but I still celebrate Christmas with my family for a number of reasons which have nothing to do with religion.) What about bird stamps - wouldn't we be recognizing druids?

I guess the point is that it's a slippery slope. Religion and culture (both current and ancient) are so intertwined that it's impossible to separate the two cleanly. We do owe religion a recognition of sorts for it's impact on human history, for better or worse. If we wipe out all religious observances then aren't we also punishing ourselves by wiping out plenty of culturally relevant celebrations?

I'm playing the devil's advocate here a little bit, but you can't deny that the line of distinction is very blurry.

[Eilonnwy]

Fact checking may have helped you, because the President has not insisted we do not have a National Day of Prayer. He simply didn't make a day of it the way Bush did.

I have no problem with stamps, since to me they seem like a consumer good. Yes it's government made, but if people want a religious stamp, why should that bother me? There are plenty of other stamps to choose from. So the stamp thing is extremely minor to be, ultimately, pretty much a non issue.

It sounds to me that your Christian is friend is probably more insulted that it's a Muslim stamp, because there are a huge number of Christian stamps and the National Day of Prayer is a separate discussion.

I would call her argument a false analogy and just false in general because we still do have the National Day of Prayer anyway. If they didn't allow Christian stamps, she might have a dog in the fight, but that's not the case.

Edit: Also note, when something is religious and done within the purview of the Government, it's an all or nothing deal. So, either no religion gets preference or all religions get notice including lack of belief. If the stamps that are put out allow for any religious or non-religious imagery, I have absolutely no problem with it. Therefore, since we do have Christian stamps, we MUST include Muslim stamps.

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More on the National Day of Prayer:

A Wisconsin judicial court ruled the National Day of Prayer unconstitutional last month, but President Obama still issued a National Day of Prayer Proclamation just as he did last year. The only thing President Obama didn't do is hold services in conjunction with the day.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-2...03544.html

Of course as an atheist, I think it's unconstitutional and should go away.

[Minimalist]

http://www.snopes.com/politics/stamps/eidstamp.asp



Your friend is repeating fascist claptrap she heard on the internet. She's wrong.

[xangelusx]

Fact checking may have helped you, because the President has not insisted we do not have a National Day of Prayer. He simply didn't make a day of it the way Bush did.

Yes, I acknowledged that fact.

Your friend is repeating fascist claptrap she heard on the internet. She's wrong.

Again, it is irrelevant to the point she made (even though I don't think it was her intended point) which is where do we draw the line in the sand? Again, this is me just batting things around in my head. I was having a hard time reconciling it (perhaps I was being bias because I happen to like Christmas tree stamps...) so I wanted to see what everyone else had to say about it. Thanks for commenting!

[Eilonnwy]

Aww, Minimalist, thanks for pointing out another nugget of falsehood with her statement.

From the two blatantly false things she said, seems she just dislikes the President and is happy to promote any false information without checking.

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Again, it is irrelevant to the point she made (even though I don't think it was her intended point) which is where do we draw the line in the sand? Again, this is me just batting things around in my head. I was having a hard time reconciling it (perhaps I was being bias because I happen to like Christmas tree stamps...) so I wanted to see what everyone else had to say about it. Thanks for commenting!

The line for me, versus stamps and National Day of Prayer is this. Stamps, while government funded, are a consumer product and to my knowledge there are many different kinds of stamps, religious and non religious. I have not heard of an instance where they discriminated against a religion. Because of their all inclusiveness I have no problem. If I was only able to purchase religious stamps, I'd have a problem.

The National Day of Prayer however is a government sanctioned minor holiday which discriminates against non-believers, Buddhists, Hindu's, and any other religion that does not hold to the Abrahamic God. It's well known to be mostly a Christian day, though by referencing only God they can get a way with saying it's for Jews and Muslims. It's discriminatory and the Government should not be compelling anyone to pray. It very clearly violates separation of church and state.

[Minimalist]

Again, it is irrelevant to the point she made (even though I don't think it was her intended point) which is where do we draw the line in the sand?

I disagree. When people repeat or produce disinformation to sustain themselves and their particular point of view then that point of view needs to be carefully examined.

The "establishment clause" of the first amendment prevents the government from preferring one religion over others. A set of stamps which honored ONLY xtian silliness might well have been unconstitutional. By including all of this nonsense they avoided the problem.

One of the problems with being an atheist is that there are no holidays. Perhaps they could have issued a blank stamp and called it the atheist stamp but I don't think it would have been a big seller.

[Dotard]

I'd like stamps please.

Yessir! What denomination?

Oh, two Southern Baptist, a Catholic, couple presbyterian and OH OH gimme a couple of those new Muslim ones!