How it was forged.

[abaris]

Been done.  It was called 'The Crusades' and - if the reports are to be trusted - it wasn't as much fun as you'd think.

Boru

Actually I meant these christians and select few muslims, who happen to drop by here, just to fire off a preaching barrage.

[Cato]

Living in an Islamic country, I remember every minute that Muslims disagree with me, to the level of being judged and attacked by my family over it, mostly keeping my opinion a secret to avoid mental & physical prosecution over the sin of reading a book without listening to "talks; aka Hadiths". Ironic, funny, but yet again I do remember. So could you explain to me please, how you formed such an opinion ?

This has absolutely nothing to do with what's being discussed and is a distraction. The same applies to atheists, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and other non-dominant Muslim sects in your country so what's the point here?

About the true Islam argument, a small puzzle might get things clear :

X wrote a book named "A".
Though Y wrote his own book, claiming its "an enhanced version of A; called the book B".

Where is the true, original A ? the one X wrote, or the one Y wrote ?

It's not that hard, cato..yes..stupid.

On something extracted from palm trees.

You are again missing the fucking point Atlas!!! I don't fucking care. This distinction is like asking me if I would rather eat cow shit or pig shit for lunch. Get it yet? X and his book named 'A' are equal amounts bullshit compared to Y and his book 'B' despite having come first. Your Quran is a pile of shit with or without the Hadiths. It's fiction. It wasn't revealed by Allah. It's not true. Get over it.

[robvalue]

It was forged in the fires of Mount Doom. Only there, can it be destroyed.

[WinterHold]

cato

This has absolutely nothing to do with what's being discussed and is a distraction. The same applies to atheists, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, and other non-dominant Muslim sects in your country so what's the point here?

I only replied to your broad statement. But true, it is a distraction from the main topic.
We better discuss the main topic only.

If you have any other "broad statements" about me, you can PM me, or open a separate topic for that.

[ReptilianPeon]

Hi,

I'm surprised that you conceded Abu Bakr was bad Caliph. If even he, as one of Sahabah, couldn't follow the Quran properly then it doesn't bode well for other leaders. What do you think could have possessed Abu Bakr to ignore the teachings of his friend Muhammad?

I have my theory and it relates to Quran Iyaht such as 2:106 and 16:101. You'll notice Quran Surah two is a Meccan revelation and Iyah 2:256 is not listed amoung the exceptions for Surah two. I strongly suspect that Iyah 2:256, which you cited, was superseded by newer Medinan Iyaht (e.g. Iyaht such as the infamous Verse of the Sword, Quran 9:5).

You can make the argument that Surah nine mostly related to the Battle of Tabuk (a fictional battle, because there is no archaeological evidence for it) or that there is a historical context, and that's fine. However, the must have been some reason that Abu Bakr did not consider Quran 2:256. Are you suggesting he was ignorant?

To refer to Guru Tegh Bahadur again: We see another example of somebody who apparently did not follow the Quran - Aurangzeb of the Mugals. Perhaps he was inspired by leaders past to persecute the Sikhs?


In regard to your claim about Surah 110. According my source, Tanzil, it is the last Surah to be revealed. Even if my source is wrong, I have to cast doubt on the claim. There is no specific date/time mentioned. As with all claimed prophecies, if there are enough believers, the believers will work together to make it seem as though those prophecies have come true.

That's why Gulf countries are competing with each other to build the tallest buildings - because Muhammad claimed they would, apparently. Muhammad is the reason why the Gulf countries engaging in these expensive vanity projects instead of using their wealth to fight poverty. They could start fighting poverty getting rid of the slavery that is the Kafalah system. And yet the Fascist Suaid establishment and those they fund, such as Yusuf Estes, Zakir Naik and those at iREA (e.g. Abur Raheem Green) have the audacity to claim that the West is immoral. They need to look in the mirror.

[LastPoet]

We had AtlasS, we had AtlasS2 and jumped to AtlasS33? What the feck?

[Minimalist]

We had AtlasS, we had AtlasS2 and jumped to AtlasS33? What the feck?

The 3 key got stuck?

[robvalue]

I don't understand what this thread is about. What's going on? Fake books or something?

[WinterHold]

MrNoMorePropaganda

I'm surprised that you conceded Abu Bakr was bad Caliph. If even he, as one of Sahabah, couldn't follow the Quran properly then it doesn't bode well for other leaders. What do you think could have possessed Abu Bakr to ignore the teachings of his friend Muhammad?

The same cause that got the followers of Moses to ignore his commands more than once, as being cited in Sura 20 Verse 86, again in Sura 5 Verse 22.

Why would Muslims be any different ?

I have my theory and it relates to Quran Iyaht such as 2:106 and 16:101. You'll notice Quran Surah two is a Meccan revelation and Iyah 2:256 is not listed amoung the exceptions for Surah two. I strongly suspect that Iyah 2:256, which you cited, was superseded by newer Medinan Iyaht (e.g. Iyaht such as the infamous Verse of the Sword, Quran 9:5).

You're totally wrong.

The link you used, arranges Suras based on chronological order for academical knowledge; which is not the case with the Quran Muslims read everyday; i.e the original that was written & kept from a millennium was written in a different order. The link only sorted them to show their chronological order; to extend the reader's knowledge with the Quran.

For example, Sura 2 on any Quran is not "Al-Qalam", rather it is "Al-Baqara". Al-Qlam has only composed of 52 verses, while Al-Baqara is composed of 286 verses.

Moreover, Al-Baqara is Medinan Sura, except verse 281; or so they said..

You can make the argument that Surah nine mostly related to the Battle of Tabuk (a fictional battle, because there is no archaeological evidence for it) or that there is a historical context, and that's fine. However, the must have been some reason that Abu Bakr did not consider Quran 2:256. Are you suggesting he was ignorant?

No.

It's too simple. The concept is simple : if somebody attacked you, defend yourself & attack them, give the fight your all. Though respect your treaties & humanitarian mid-war truces; the "forbidden months" or in Arabic "Al ashhor al horom" are such truces well knows between Arabs.

As Muslims were in an open war with Mecca and other tribes; God told them what is cited in Sura 9 verse 5 : respect the truce of the forbidden months, though once the months go, unleash the war once again.

All of it, with respecting the Muslim code in warfare :
Sura 2 : (Verse 190 ) { Fight in the way of Allah those who fight you but do not transgress. Indeed. Allah does not like transgressors }.

One simple rule.

As for Abu Bakr ? I don't know the guy. Maybe he was scared so he disobeyed, or simply had other tribal reasons. The reason died with him, only the legacy remained.

To refer to Guru Tegh Bahadur again: We see another example of somebody who apparently did not follow the Quran - Aurangzeb of the Mugals. Perhaps he was inspired by leaders past to persecute the Sikhs?

I didn't study that part of history; though if you wanted my opinion about many of ancient Muslim empires, they fell in the grid of the sects; if the ruler wanted to prosecute somebody, he has many examples (some are as ancient as the first century of Islam), to follow in their footsteps.

So if ever questioned he would say : THAT specific ancestor did so.

A move the the Quran warned about in this verse :

Sura 2 (Verse 170 ) { And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? }.

In regard to your claim about Surah 110. According my source, Tanzil, it is the last Surah to be revealed. Even if my source is wrong, I have to cast doubt on the claim. There is no specific date/time mentioned. As with all claimed prophecies, if there are enough believers, the believers will work together to make it seem as though those prophecies have come true.

Personally ? I never believed the time of revelation at all and that goes for any Sura; my topic applies perfectly on the time of revelation: it's no more than a Hadith. Scholars still have debates about which "revelation time" is more accurate. Though from a language perspective, the verse says :
"When the victory of allah comes...". It's impossible to cite a pre event; rather it talks about a post event. and humans are not that simple minded; if they detected something like a false prophecy (since the verses were read out loud for the public), they would've revolted; especially in a tribal society.

Mohammed's death alone  caused to rebellion that.

Then again, Sura 48 is the one that was revealed after the victory; from a linguistic point of view.

And still, the Quran talked about other "matters" such as the reestablishment of Israel, which took place exactly as it was written after a millennium, in Sura 17 Verse 6.

( 6 )   Then We gave back to you a return victory over them. And We reinforced you with wealth and sons and made you more numerous in manpower

That's why Gulf countries are competing with each other to build the tallest buildings - because Muhammad claimed they would, apparently. Muhammad is the reason why the Gulf countries engaging in these expensive vanity projects instead of using their wealth to fight poverty. They could start fighting poverty getting rid of the slavery that is the Kafalah system. And yet the Fascist Suaid establishment and those they fund, such as Yusuf Estes, Zakir Naik and those at iREA (e.g. Abur Raheem Green) have the audacity to claim that the West is immoral. They need to look in the mirror.

In fact, I know for certain that it was a "Hadith" saying so, moreover it's banned in Saudi schools to teach this Hadith (since they see it insulting).
Real estate contracts bring in a lot of cash, the UAE is such in example, that's the real reason why they build such buildings. Since that region is mainly a desert with nothing special, such buildings gives it the green light to catch investor's eyes.

A skyscraper filled with fancy hotels, office buildings & shopping malls is indeed inviting to western & foreign businessmen; making the building tall enough makes the city stands out in records as a good investing ground.

Speaking about poor people  you do know where the cash they get from these projects go , but I should also cite it never lands on a poor man's plate. A closer look into the Middle East would tell you where it goes.

[ReptilianPeon]

Why couldn't the Quran be easy like the Bible? Oh well. Completely forgot you don't like Hadiths, and I have to agree with you that Hadiths are not a good source of information - for the most part (they contain some funny/curious things, like Muhammad expressing his dislike of Chess).

However, not using Hadith does create all sorts of problems. How do you know to pray five times a day? Most of the details for the story of Muhammad's Night Journey (through the seven heavens) come from the Hadith.

You need the Hadith to get the specifics of Salat and for the Sharia. How would you properly follow the Sunnah without any Hadith? Even if one is not Sunni, and either Ibadi or Shia, you would still see Muhammad as an example and use their Hadith collections to follow his example.

Moving on to the story of Moses now:

Given all of the disproportionate suffering Allah inflicted on innocent Egyptians (e.g. children), who may not have necessarily agreed with the Pharaoh, I probably would have disobeyed Allah too and pointed out the unfairness. Why didn't Allah simply do a Quran 13:13 on the Pharaoh or the royal palace instead of killing powerless Egyptians? It would have been so much simpler.

Quran 13:13 Nay, thunder repeateth His praises, and so do the angels, with awe: He flingeth the loud-voiced thunder-bolts, and therewith He striketh whomsoever He will.. yet these (are the men) who (dare to) dispute about Allah, with the strength of His power (supreme)!

Quran 20:86 So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?"

If I was Allah, I would have prevented them from becoming slaves in the first place. That way, no innocent Egyptians get killed and nobody gets their free will taken away. I would be a deity that doesn't just assert that humans get free will; I would defend it too. So when people are taken as slaves I would condemn the slave masters.

I do find it ironic that Allah didn't like the followers of Moses being kept as slaves and gives details in the Quran on keeping slaves. Why the double standard? Like in Muhammad's day, everyone in Pharaoh's day was taking slaves.

There are plenty of Iyaht on the subject of slavery in the Quran. You can say "the Quran had specific rules for how slaves to be treated" or how the freeing of slaves is a great act, etc. And that's fine, but would you keep a slave if given the chance? If not, why not?

I'm sure if you went to the Yemen and abducted some Akhdam for yourself, nobody, besides the immediate family, would care. Or, if people of colour aren't your thing, how about some Zabaleen? The Fascist Egyptian government has treated the Zabaleen terribly so maybe you can give them a better life as a slave? For example, they took away all of their pigs and used Swine Flu as the excuse. And then there was chaos, because it turns out pigs are not actually that bad, or at least not as bad as the Quran claims they are.

So what's stopping you? The Quran allows you take slaves after all. I'm sure it's your ability to empathize that's telling you that slavery is wrong.