Jesus's sacrifice

[Godscreated]

[quote='Godschild' pid='70753' dateline='1274053786']Shell B, Tackattack has made it clear that sin is not having Gods will in your decisions.

I don't feel like anything was made clear. Hypothetically, if I build a robot and then that robot somehow harms someone or "sins", would it be the robot's fault or mine? Who was behind the crime? It is my feeling that it would be my fault. Just because the robot didn't do exactly what I told it to do, doesn't remove the blame from me.

In reality a robot is the best you can do. A hunk of metal with no freewill, no feelings, no sense of responsbility, no sense of right and wrong and can only act on your primative programming. So you betcha your responsible for its actions which makes you, not the robot, guilty of the sin.
God did not make robots He created man with the full capacity to make decisions, with a freewill to exercise his decisions and with the knowledge of right and wrong so that we know there are consequences for our decisions.

Taking the blame off of god is the same principle as a parent abusing a child and then acting all butthurt when the child acts out.

I really do not see the connection here God did not abuse Adam and Eve and their choice was not Gods responsibility. Their choice came from the freewill given them to be as they desired. This was not Gods will for them He never forced them into any decision therefore the responsibility falls on them not God. I do not understand how you can think that this act of rebellion was in anyway Gods fault. God has made all of us beings of freewill and frankly I would not want it any other way. You argue this point as if (that's if you were a believer) God was a puppeteer. If you were a believer is this what you would want God to be, I guess it would make responsibility easier saying God made me do it. That would be the same as saying the devil made me do it just like Eve did what an insult to God who gave her the freewill to choose and Adam was no better when he blamed Eve.

When God created the universe it was perfect there was no sin. Then Satan (Lucifer) defied God bringing sin into existance. The sin was not a part of the created universe at this point in time because God and the angels lived outside of the created phyisical universe and sin was contained there.

If god created the universe, then he created everything in it. Paul put it best,

the very fact that something exists demands that nothingness also exist (for lack of a better word). So, if god created existence, then he simultaneously created non-existence.

God did not create existence He already existed, God did not create sin, sin is an action against God. Lucifer and man chose to go against God thus sin was born. If existence had to be created then God would have been a creation but He's not He's eternal. God did bring things into existence that did not exist before, this is the creation of things not existence itself. There is no such thing as non-existence even the big bang theory does not allow for non-existence, there are things, places, people and ect. that are yet to exist. These are things not existence itself.

[The_Flying_Skeptic]

@Watson
i said " The whole 'reason' the Christian deity sacrificed itself is based on sin, a concept that isn't even real. Hence, Jesus sacrificed itself for nothing." k. i see how what I said is contradictory if we start off assuming that a deity existed. I started off with the priori that a deity existed and ended with an atheist conclusion on the existence of sin. sorry about that. definitely nonsensical.

My not believing in the existence of sin infiltrated my line of thought.

Then I was trying to say that you must deal with someone who does not believe in sin and does not see the need to ask for forgiveness everyday - your girlfriend. She must be a very nice person since you're with her even though she has no belief in sin, heaven, hell, 'basis for morality'. Isn't she, in a way, 'proof' that sin does not exist? Tangent: how do you feel about your girlfriend going to hell 'according to most of the Bible'? Do you feel that way about that part of the Bible or do you stray for the Bible once again on this sentiment?

[Watson]

She is a very nice person, I love her dearly, and I hope desperately that she will not go to Hell. I hope very much that she will not choose that path, but it is her decision. We frequently talk about our beliefs and when she asks me how I feel on a certain subject, I tell her out-right. We get along and accept each other's differences because we love each other very much.

But simply because I say she is a nice person does not mean I claim her to be a mentally healthy person. She is manic depressive, and she is well aware of this. We both cope with it as well as we can, but it can be aggitated some times and there is no control over when and where that will hapen on either of our parts.

There are also other beliefs she holds and feelings she has that I do not agree with that you might, that are a direct result of her dis-belief in sin and God, but I will not disclose them here for her privacy's sake. It's nothing bad, but I don't want to speak on her behalf when she isn't here.

[Shell B]

God did not create existence He already existed, God did not create sin, sin is an action against God. Lucifer and man chose to go against God thus sin was born. If existence had to be created then God would have been a creation but He's not He's eternal. God did bring things into existence that did not exist before, this is the creation of things not existence itself. There is no such thing as non-existence even the big bang theory does not allow for non-existence, there are things, places, people and ect. that are yet to exist. These are things not existence itself.

*sigh* Was god the only thing that existed? I'm going to assume that your answer is going to be yes. If such is the case, then god created sin by creating creatures that are capable of sin. You could even say he created sin by making rules. You could say he created sin by pissing off Lucifer. It is quite obvious to me that you are just trying to make your god faultless. This argument can have no end because there is no way that a Christian would ever admit to god having faults. Therefore, sin must be someone else's fault.

Seeing that I don't believe in god or sin, I can hardly care. However, I do find the fact that you cover up for god kind of strange. I mean, what difference does it make to you if he made a mistake?

[Minimalist]

and I hope desperately that she will not go to Hell.

Rest easy. There is no hell. It was invented by religious assholes.

[tackattack]

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He gives us every option so that we can lear what is truly good and what is truly evil, to learn his plan. He wants us to evolve and succeed in this endeavor, so he gives us revelations of his will and tools to gauge right vs wrong.

Now, if this were the case, how long do we have to learn "his plan?" I only ask because I don't think that young children who commit heinous murders were given every option to learn what is truly good and truly evil. This is an obvious fact. How can you learn right from wrong completely by the age of, say, ten? So, knowing that it is a fact that children can not be expected to have learned the complexities of good and 'evil' and that children have committed murder, would a Christian have to safely assume that god abandoned these children before they ever had a chance?

Furthermore, is it the child's fault, if they had never read god's revelations? I mean, if he/she was never presented with them in his/her short lifetime before committing a sin, then did god want to see that child fail?

Now, I understand that god doesn't desire us to sin, in your eyes. However, god is responsible for sin, by the definition I have been shown. Sin is not simply the absence of god's will. It is actions, as defined by the Christian representation of sin. god creates man; god is responsible for man's actions. I still think that even if sin simply was the absence of god's will, god made his will, therefore creating sin. It doesn't matter how you slice it. For example, if I am absent from work, I created that absence by ever being present. If I had never gone, I would never had been absent. I'm sorry if my analogies suck, but someone must understand the concept. Or, am I just beating my head against a wall?

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It's moving so fast I can barely keep up. I will disagree with watson on this one. I don't feel children who can't distinguish right from wrong can sin. If they can't distinguish what is right, they can't really do wrong then can they. It's the development of conscience at around 7 that is typically the turning point of them having opinions and thinking for themselves. A lot of times this is stifled and they are brainwashed, for all kinds of reasons. The blame for that would fall on those stiffiling. God is responsible for giving us the option to sin yes. But the action of actually sinning once we are able to determine right from wrong is ours. Sins are the roads we shouldn't take, siple as that. Yes he created teh roads, but we walk them; that's not something I would consider a mistake by God. My son for example is 7. He knows what is right and wrong to some degree and is very empathetic. I could convince him probably to pick up a gun and shoot someone. He knows what the consequences of shooting someone with a gun is, they die. He would do the act, probably with a lot of hesitation, but would feel remorsefull after. He has then learned that not everthing daddy says is right and he would regret that sinful act. If he died the next day, do I think he would be forgiven by God? yes. His remorse was genuine, he has realized what he's done was wrong seeks redemption for his wrong doing. Ok that was a morbid excercise I think I'm done for the night.

[Watson]

I didn't say that the child couldn't distinguish right from wrong, I said that the child did not yet understand why right is right and wrong is wrong. The child already knows, it's part of how we are born, but the child might not yet understand.

[tackattack]

If you don't realize you have 20 bucks in your pocket can you use it to buy anything?
I don't think God would punish those who have don't have a conscious, because they can't diferentiate right from wrong. I don't even think they can actually "know" right and wrong without conscious consent of right and wrong... If you're saying the a 4 year old with a bomb strapped to him has any choice and God will punish them, I'm still going to have to disagree, respectfully of course. I don't think God punishes actions just choices... you know that atheist phrase "thought police".. I believe that's more true than a lot of Christians would like to admit.

[Dotard]

Christians here are still ignoring the fact Jesus didn't sacrifice a thing.

It's not a sacrifice if you get it back within a few days. Sacrificed his 'human mortal' life you say?

Whoopie poo. That's like me leaving Texas for Louisiana, getting beat up there, moving back to Texas and claiming I "sacrificed" my life. My Louisiana life. It's meaningless. I mean the dude didn't even lose a finger or remained crippled or anything that would qualify as a 'sacrifice'.

I could not find the clip where Jesus keeps getting killed and just returns to life with a big grin on his face, so I'll post this one instead. At least I could agree he sacrificed sex, but definately not his life or anything meaningful.

[youtube]lKRbl5qI0Cc[/youtube]


(( I posted the above clip because it pleasures me. Never let it be said you could not count on Dotard to pleasure himself.))

[tackattack]

I don't know what it's like to be incorporeal and eternal and choose to live a mortal life, then die horribly and return to the incorporeal. From our perspective though it does seem like not much was sacrificed other than his mortal life. I think the difference beteen corporeal and incorporeal life have to be far different than the different than Louisianna nd Texas. Maybe it's different when you have nerve endings and pleasure centers and actually have a body that elicits such strong chemical reactions. idk just speculation. [/avoiding]