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Bible way to Heaven
RE: Bible way to Heaven
(October 10, 2015 at 1:13 pm)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: I have "heard the call" of Cthulhu, of Lord Shiva, of Allah, of Jehovah, and Wotan the Allfather.

Which one was I supposed to not ignore?

Cthulhu. There is a genuine time when a god shouldn't be ignored. When they're an admin!
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RE: Bible way to Heaven
I have to speak the truth

Quote:Quote Stimbo the Fool:Wrong. Don't you ever strawman me again.

Or what, you will ban me, I don’t care and I will even call you a fool for not believing.


Quote:again by Stimbo the Fool:But what it does mean is that if we as Staff decide that you are in breach of the Rules, you will accept the decision.


Quote:By Stimbo the Fool:Yes and especially yes, respectively. The pope doesn't even have an excuse, because it's his job. Either he truly believes in fairytale nonsense, making him an idiot, or he doesn't and he's getting paid for a job he knows is a lie.

You, fool still looking to find fault with anything Godly and your lack of faith.
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RE: Bible way to Heaven
I see the dumbass chose death by Stimbo. Best decision of his sad, pathetic, little life...
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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RE: Bible way to Heaven
(October 11, 2015 at 11:15 am)Randys brother Wrote: Or what, you will ban me, I don’t care and I will even call you a fool for not believing.

Do you go out of your way to be a cunt or does it come naturally?
Reply
RE: Bible way to Heaven
(October 11, 2015 at 11:15 am)Randys brother Wrote: I have to speak the truth

Quote:Quote Stimbo the Fool:Wrong. Don't you ever strawman me again.

Or what, you will ban me, I don’t care and I will even call you a fool for not believing.


Quote:again by Stimbo the Fool:But what it does mean is that if we as Staff decide that you are in breach of the Rules, you will accept the decision.


Quote:By Stimbo the Fool:Yes and especially yes, respectively. The pope doesn't even have an excuse, because it's his job. Either he truly believes in fairytale nonsense, making him an idiot, or he doesn't and he's getting paid for a job he knows is a lie.

You, fool still looking to find fault with anything Godly and your lack of faith.

Needs more green font.
Reply
RE: Bible way to Heaven
(October 11, 2015 at 10:14 am)Randys brother Wrote:
(October 11, 2015 at 9:46 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote:

Dodgy 
I don't agree with Finkelstein israel,who is a minimalist, someone who detests the very idea of God and who strives mightily to debunk each and every statement in the Bible. 
Alas for the minimalists, pretty much every other week some archaeologist uncovers yet another proof that the Bible is true. It has really been a very discouraging few decades for them, hasn't it? 

Not that mere proof has stopped Finkelstein and his ilk from continuing to do as much harm as they can, bless their unhappy little hearts. And to think that there are people who insist there is no God when we have people like Finkelstein. After all if there is no God, why is he exhausting himself trying to prove to other people God doesn't exist? WHy not spend his time in wine, women, and song? Personally, I consider Finkelstein and his cohorts proof positive of the existence of God. 

David and Solomon were fictional characters, insisted the minimalists! And they kept that up, right up until the ninth-century BC stone tablet was found at Tel Dan and there was the radio carbon dating at Megiddo that confirmed the existence of David. 

Now all Finkelstein can mutter on about is how, well, maybe there really was a David, but he was only a pathetic, little king, nothing as grand as the Bible suggests. 

Yes, that is how badly Finkelstein and the minimalists have been refuted. Between that and the blinding, horrifying, massive proof of evil in our midst - the murder of one hundred and fifty million people by the atheist communists, all within living human memory - you would think that the atheists would be sensible and retire to their lairs to drink themselves to death. Never seems to happen, however. 
Here are good books to refute everything that poor Finkelstein has written: 
The Archaeology of Ancient Israel by Amnon Ben-Tor for the Old Testament
Ancient Israel in Sinai by James Hoffmeier for Genesis
There are many critic's against him,

 Believing in what you said will only get me to Hell.


         
Finkelstein is not a Minimalist. You consider him a Minimalist because you think there's more evidence than he discusses in his lectures--- by the way, he has a great lecture on the finds at Tel Dan, if you care enough to go look it up. I'm not going to bother because it's pretty obvious to me you're not interested in listening, but if you do promise to watch it, I'll go look it up for you.

Why in the world would you use such bitter and vicious terms like "their lairs" and "drink themselves to death" to describe atheists? Why should we not be scholars on such important questions, when religious ideology is a source of political motivations, worldwide? Why should we be any less dedicated to our search for the truth than anyone else?

I think you spelled out your own prejudice quite clearly, when you said "Believing in what you said will only get me to Hell". You are afraid to question. I am not. What do I have to lose, if you are right? Nothing! How nice it would be, how easy and comfortable, to be able to rejoin the religious belief set shared by literally every other member of my family except my siblings, the belief of almost my entire town/community, and the overwhelming majority of fellow Americans? I began as a Christian, when I started my research on these subjects, and I came to the conclusion that it's unsupportable-- I was and remain an inherently honest person, so I changed my mind. I am perfectly willing to change it back in light of better evidence, but I have seen nothing that suggests the things you are claiming are true, except for a lot of presuppositionalism and observer-bias.

Why do you loose your venom at us, and at researchers like Finkelstein (who is hated by the Minimalists just as much as he is hated by the extremists on your side), who try to walk an honest path and really look at what the evidence does and doesn't say? For the record, though, I will say that I think Finkelstein stood on a position that was dead-wrong, some time ago, and that a lot of his work these days has to do with slowly backpedaling from that position, trying to justify having said it, rather than coming out and saying he was totally wrong. But I don't think he's as dishonest by any stretch of the imagination as you and the fundamentalist "researchers", who start and end with the Bible, have sought to portray him.

If you come to a debate and start by saying, essentially, "My mind is made up, and nothing you can say will change it!!!", what kind of person should I conclude that you are?

Incidentally, I in no way rely on Finkelstein alone. In fact, I consider many of Finkelstein's claims invalid, or based on assumptions too far-fetched to be reliable. (Just wanted to emphasize that so you don't miss it.) You might look into the criticisms of the Tel Dan stele by archaeologists like Niels Lemche, who claims it is a forgery based on the poor use of the Aramaic in the inscription (among other reasons to do with the chisel marks on it, and the condition of the find), or Aaron Demsky's claim that the circumstances of the find are more than a little bit suspect, or Francesca Stavrakopoulou's claim that it does not support an historical King David based on the usage of the phrasing. Many others question the dating of the inscription, such as Thomas L. Thompson and Francis H. Cryer... but all these are beside the point. Whether or not there was an historical King David (which the stele does not confirm, only that there was a "House of David" and that the king referenced in the actual stele belonged to that lineage), it does not make the Bible any more valid. It only means they didn't fuck up the history they describe.

In other words, just because someone in the year 4000 finds evidence that proves there was in fact an historical President Obama, it doesn't mean that the Prophet Joseph Smith received a divine revelation from God through the angel that appeared to him, two centuries before in the Kingdom of North America! Especially if the reference is not to President Obama himself, but to one of his successors "of the political party of Obama". Does it suggest there was a President Obama? Sure! But whatever agreement between the book and the stone inscription we find that tells us these things does not mean that the Book of Mormon is accurate. Each claim must be examined independently. Even if David was really a powerful king, it doesn't mean the conquest of Joshua really happened. It doesn't mean that the Israelites were in Egypt (the evidence against those is pretty powerful), and it doesn't mean that the Bible should be relied upon as more than a side-reference after  finding archaeological evidence for things. No one things the writers of the Bible were trying  to create provably-incorrect fiction; likely, they were doing the best they could with the information they had. It's a surprise to no one that parts of the Bible are correct.

Let me agree for a moment, for the purpose of this exchange, that the Bible got every historical detail about the kingdoms of Saul, David, and Solomon correct, and Israel was powerful in the 10th and 9th centuries, BCE... what does it change? 

The only reason I can think of why you think that I have a burning need to disprove the historical Israelite kingdoms, why you think I need the whole Bible to be false (I don't), is because you have a burning need for it all to be true. If we're going to discuss prejudices and presuppositions here, let's be really really clear about where we stand, eh?

You've made your position of dishonesty quite clear. Now please do try to understand my position.
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

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RE: Bible way to Heaven
P.S. - You do realize that the link you provided, to Patheos.com, is an atheist website, and they're criticizing Finkelstein but are also detroying your position?
A Christian told me: if you were saved you cant lose your salvation. you're sealed with the Holy Ghost

I replied: Can I refuse? Because I find the entire concept of vicarious blood sacrifice atonement to be morally abhorrent, the concept of holding flawed creatures permanently accountable for social misbehaviors and thought crimes to be morally abhorrent, and the concept of calling something "free" when it comes with the strings of subjugation and obedience perhaps the most morally abhorrent of all... and that's without even going into the history of justifying genocide, slavery, rape, misogyny, religious intolerance, and suppression of free speech which has been attributed by your own scriptures to your deity. I want a refund. I would burn happily rather than serve the monster you profess to love.

Reply
RE: Bible way to Heaven
If you get banned - and I call dibs on the hammer - it will be because of your behaviour and disregard for the forum; not because you're a cunt.

Call me a fool all you like, if it gets you off. I've been called far worse and by far better than you. However, consider that I don't have to make myself feel important and respected by condemning others on the basis of their not thinking the way I do.

Now, since we've exposed your ad hominems for the desperate deflections they are, would you indulge us with a smidgen of actual discussion on the points I and others have put to you? Or would you prefer to tapdance again?
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist.  This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair.  Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second.  That means there's a situation vacant.'
Reply
RE: Bible way to Heaven
(October 11, 2015 at 11:41 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: P.S. - You do realize that the link you provided, to Patheos.com, is an atheist website, and they're criticizing Finkelstein but are also detroying your position?

He wouldn't recognize a pine cone shoved up his ass.
Reply
RE: Bible way to Heaven
Quote:Quote:TheRocketsurgen 

Finkelstein 
is not a Minimalist. You consider him a Minimalist because you think there's more evidence than he discusses in his lectures--- by the way, he has a great lecture on the finds at Tel Dan, if you care enough to go look it up. I'm not going to bother because it's pretty obvious to me you're not interested in listening, but if you do promise to watch it, I'll go look it up for you.

Why in the world would you use such bitter and vicious terms like "their lairs" and "drink themselves to death" to describe atheists? Why should we not be scholars on such important questions, when religious ideology is a source of political motivations, worldwide? Why should we be any less dedicated to our search for the truth than anyone else?

I think you spelled out your own prejudice quite clearly, when you said "Believing in what you said will only get me to Hell". You are afraid to question. I am not. What do I have to lose, if you are right? Nothing! How nice it would be, how easy and comfortable, to be able to rejoin the religious belief set shared by literally every other member of my family except my siblings, the belief of almost my entire town/community, and the overwhelming majority of fellow Americans? I began as a Christian, when I started my research on these subjects, and I came to the conclusion that it's unsupportable-- I was and remain an inherently honest person, so I changed my mind. I am perfectly willing to change it back in light of better evidence, but I have seen nothing that suggests the things you are claiming are true, except for a lot of presuppositionalism and observer-bias.

Why do you loose your venom at us, and at researchers like Finkelstein (who is hated by the Minimalists just as much as he is hated by the extremists on your side), who try to walk an honest path and really look at what the evidence does and doesn't say? For the record, though, I will say that I think Finkelstein stood on a position that was dead-wrong, some time ago, and that a lot of his work these days has to do with slowly backpedaling from that position, trying to justify having said it, rather than coming out and saying he was totally wrong. But I don't think he's as dishonest by any stretch of the imagination as you and the fundamentalist "researchers", who start and end with the Bible, have sought to portray him.

If you come to a debate and start by saying, essentially, "My mind is made up, and nothing you can say will change it!!!", what kind of person should I conclude that you are?

Incidentally, I in no way rely on Finkelstein alone. In fact, I consider many of Finkelstein's claims invalid, or based on assumptions too far-fetched to be reliable. (Just wanted to emphasize that so you don't miss it.) You might look into the criticisms of the Tel Dan stele by archaeologists like Niels Lemche, who claims it is a forgery based on the poor use of the Aramaic in the inscription (among other reasons to do with the chisel marks on it, and the condition of the find), or Aaron Demsky's claim that the circumstances of the find are more than a little bit suspect, or Francesca Stavrakopoulou's claim that it does not support an historical King David based on the usage of the phrasing. Many others question the dating of the inscription, such as Thomas L. Thompson and Francis H. Cryer... but all these are beside the point. Whether or not there was an historical King David (which the stele does not confirm, only that there was a "House of David" and that the king referenced in the actual stele belonged to that lineage), it does not make the Bible any more valid. It only means they didn't fuck up the history they describe.

In other words, just because someone in the year 4000 finds evidence that proves there was in fact an historical President Obama, it doesn't mean that the Prophet Joseph Smith received a divine revelation from God through the angel that appeared to him, two centuries before in the Kingdom of North America! Especially if the reference is not to President Obama himself, but to one of his successors "of the political party of Obama". Does it suggest there was a President Obama? Sure! But whatever agreement between the book and the stone inscription we find that tells us these things does not mean that the Book of Mormon is accurate. Each claim must be examined independently. Even if David was really a powerful king, it doesn't mean the conquest of Joshua really happened. It doesn't mean that the Israelites were in Egypt (the evidence against those is pretty powerful), and it doesn't mean that the Bible should be relied upon as more than a side-reference after  finding archaeological evidence for things. No one things the writers of the Bible were trying  to create provably-incorrect fiction; likely, they were doing the best they could with the information they had. It's a surprise to no one that parts of the Bible are correct.

Let me agree for a moment, for the purpose of this exchange, that the Bible got every historical detail about the kingdoms of Saul, David, and Solomon correct, and Israel was powerful in the 10th and 9th centuries, BCE... what does it change? 

The only reason I can think of why you think that I have a burning need to disprove the historical Israelite kingdoms, why you think I need the whole Bible to be false (I don't), is because you have a burning need for it all to be true. If we're going to discuss prejudices and presuppositions here, let's be really really clear about where we stand, eh?

You've made your position of dishonesty quite clear. Now please do try to understand my position.




(October 11, 2015 at 11:41 am)TheRocketSurgeon Wrote: P.S. - You do realize that the link you provided, to Patheos.com, is an atheist website, and they're criticizing Finkelstein but are also detroying your position?

Nope,liar

Quote:Founded in 2008, Patheos.com is the premier online destination to engage in the global dialogue about religion and spirituality and to explore and experience the world's beliefs. Patheos is the website of choice for the millions of people looking for credible and balanced information about religion. Patheos brings together faith communities, academics, and the broader public into a single environment, and is the place where many people turn on a regular basis for insight, inspiration, and stimulating discussion. Patheos is unlike any other religious and spiritual site on the Web today.
As evidenced by the company founders' story, religion and spirituality continue to be an important part of American life, with more Americans today than ever before identifying themselves as spiritual. In fact, according to the Pew Internet Project, more than 82 million Americans (and 64 percent of all Internet users) utilize the Web for faith-related matters. The importance of religion and spirituality, coupled with the growing use of the Internet for religious matters, point to the ongoing need for an online resource for religious and spiritual engagement and dialogue. Patheos fills this need.
Patheos is a place to:
  • Find accurate, balanced information on the world's religions in our extensive library.

  • View religious history and facts through unique interactive tools that allow visitors to compare, contrast, and explore religions and belief systems in new and innovative ways.

  • Participate in the global dialogue on religion and spirituality through responsible, moderated discussions on critical issues across religious traditions.

  • Read commentary on current events from a wide range of viewpoints.

  • Follow your favorite bloggers and columnists.

  • Engage with others from various faith traditions.

  • Get a glimpse into the beliefs and traditions of other faith groups in a safe and welcoming environment.
  • Source:http://www.patheos.com/About-Patheos

(October 11, 2015 at 11:45 am)Stimbo Wrote: If you get banned - and I call dibs on the hammer - it will be because of your behaviour and disregard for the forum; not because you're a cunt.

Call me a fool all you like, if it gets you off. I've been called far worse and by far better than you. However, consider that I don't have to make myself feel important and respected by condemning others on the basis of their not thinking the way I do.

Now, since we've exposed your ad hominems for the desperate deflections they are, would you indulge us with a smidgen of actual discussion on the points I and others have put to you? Or would you prefer to tapdance again?

Didn't expect that one.
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