refuting misconceptions:1-women in Islam

[mo3taz3nbar]

You could try answering Scented Nectar for a start Else it seems you have no answer to her argument... and her argument would remain an uncontested conclusion, which would hardly support your "side?" of the argument

---

i dont see the question there

Also, you've yet to respond to my post from page 4, which I've just now copied and moved here (and edited two words that might be slightly misleading). It's another point that gone unresponded makes your side only the weaker

thats what am talking about http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/sc...175612.ece
not the difference in body

[Violet]

I didn't say she asked a question... I suggested you answer her argument I see plenty of argument to answer here

---

Do they outnumber or even equal the number of cases where she gets less? No divorce financial rules should be based on gender.

no am not outnumbering anything i just prove that the rules of divorce or anything dont depend on gender

You haven't proven this at all. We have seen proof that the rules are indeed dependant on gender. Nothing so far says to disregard those rules. It hasn't even been pseudo-counter-balanced with an opposing (but equally sexist) divorce rule in men's disfavour that happens with equal frequency.

being more emotional has nothing to do with the things you mentioned above when you become a mother you will have more understanding of this

I am 47 years old, sonny!!! But, thanks for trying to tell me what I will be feeling, you silly young person who is not even the same gender as me and knows nothing of motherhood or parental instincts. For people who do decide to have children, of course emotions come into play, but for both. Which parent is going to be staying home and raising the kids, thus having a higher likely emotional investment/experience? I used to know a guy who really liked the idea of someday being a househusband, doing the traditionally female role of child care and cooking. He was a very good cook too, and had I ever wanted to settle down and raise a family, I would have pursued him in a serious way, but I digress.

its your freedom to choose wether to believe and do what god tells you or you refuse it but the things you see as freedom they seem like that but later things that may happen is really harmful for you and for the society(even if it didnt happen to you till now) you have to try it by yourself to know that when god forbid something its also for your own benefit

That's pretty creepy. I hope that's not what it sounds like, but before jumping to conclusions, what harmful results are you trying to blame on the three examples of exposed skin, unmarried sex and porn viewing? Also, are you saying that this harm will happen differently to women, eg resulting from the fact that your religion gives different clothing rules to women and men?

calm down scented am not attacking you we are just sharing our beliefs am not trying to force anything to you maybe the things am telling you now you will discover it later and the same about anything you tell me

Calm down yourself, buddy. I'll be as calm or not calm as I feel like. You are telling me that your imaginary god is forcing this on me. If your god wants to tell me something, he can tell me directly. He can instantly talk to my brain in a way that I can't help but to believe in him. Then I can consider whether it's worth following the rules he (not you or your silly book) tells me about to avoid the after death punishment he threatens me with.

---

thats what am talking about http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/sc...175612.ece
not the difference in body

How would a difference in the brain change what clothes they should wear on their bodies? Also, it should be noted that whilst these differences in brain might hold true for the most part, they do not necessarily define all of each sex Further, one might note that what differences there are in the brains of men and women are largely due to what the society of humans value in male and female humans (and thusly: helped them carry on their genes). In other words: one would (given enough time) find entirely different results in a matriarchal society of humans... and similarly: other species' male and female thought patterns would reflect the attributes that helped them reproduce.

Also... I think that

While there are no sex differences in general intelligence, women tend to have stronger visual memories, while men are more proficient at visualising objects when rotated in space. It has been suggested that this may reflect the way most men like to navigate by reading maps, while many women prefer to remember landmarks

Is utterly ridiculous. Just where in our evolutionary chain would maps have entered into it so as to make those men able to read maps more capable of reproduction, or more likely to carry on their genes? Also mo3... please not that these are tendencies, not certainties for male and female humans Ultimately, the differences in male and female human brains is no more significant than the differences between the brain of a male human and another one, and likewise of female humans.

I should have you know: I am a vehement opponent of equality... but I simply can't see any of this as being even remotely significant past slight biological interest... and is hardly enough of a change so as to make one person wear different clothes than another. If you don't clothe people differently because of a difference in the body or brain... then by what do you judge them to wear different clothes?

[mo3taz3nbar]

I should have you know: I am a vehement opponent of equality... but I simply can't see any of this as being even remotely significant past slight biological interest... and is hardly enough of a change so as to make one person wear different clothes than another. If you don't clothe people differently because of a difference in the body or brain... then by what do you judge them to wear different clothes?

the question here is do the same parts of the body of a man and a woman are the same regarding sexuality?do women get aroused sexually by sight as men?
check this
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifesty...5757950317

[Violet]

the question here is do the same parts of the body of a man and a woman are the same regarding sexuality?do women get aroused sexually by sight as men?
check this
http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/lifesty...5757950317

Depends... is the person androphiliac or gynephiliac? And as can be questioned once the former question is answered: what does it matter that a person find another sexually attractive (So much that it applies to their clothing, if they wear it?)?

As it turns out... women do get aroused visually. Not to the extent of men I'm told... but the fact remains that humans are very visual animals.

[mo3taz3nbar]

As it turns out... women do get aroused visually. Not to the extent of men I'm told... but the fact remains that humans are very visual animals.

first:i find it humilating for a woman or a man to look at each other as objects of lust regardless of love and emotional feelings
second:i think we all agree that man chest for a woman is not as sexy as woman chest for man the parts of the body is not the same according to the other sex
third:its for the women own protection you can check the rates of rape in muslim countries and in other countries
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ra...per-capita

[Violet]

first:i find it humilating for a woman or a man to look at each other as objects of lust regardless of love and emotional feelings

Why?

Are humans not objects?

second:i think we all agree that man chest for a woman is not as sexy as woman chest for man the parts of the body is not the same according to the other sex

Posh... a well muscled chest is among the first things I'm interested in when I look at human male porn

third:its for the women own protection you can check the rates of rape in muslim countries and in other countries
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_ra...per-capita

I've got a better idea for reducing rape rates:

Firstly:



Second:

Compulsory combat training for all fit women.

Combined: guaranteed to reduce rape rates in a country near you.

[mo3taz3nbar]

loool @ searules

[Scented Nectar]

I've got a better idea for reducing rape rates:

Firstly:



Second:

Compulsory combat training for all fit women.

Combined: guaranteed to reduce rape rates in a country near you.

I like it. It's very effective.

Mo, if a man gets too horny, he can go to the bathroom and take care of his problem using his hands. Do you not know how to do this? A man who is aroused can also go home to visit his wife, especially in the muslim world where the wife must always say yes to it in obedience.

Modern healthy men do not get aroused by raping. The idea of their partner not enjoying the sex turns them off. Are you saying that muslim men can't control their penises? And that this lack of control is so bad and weak that they must rape to relieve themselves? That's pathetic. Maybe if you guys weren't so anti-porn, the men who DO need force to get off, could just view staged force scenes and spare many a potential real life victim. The same goes for any sex that would be truly harmful if acted upon.

How many rapists do you muslims have in your societies? It must be a lot if they are such a majority that everyone else has to cater to them.

The reason the muslim countries REPORT lower rapes, is that the women are scared to speak up. Most of those countries KILL the victim after torturing her for a while with whippings, calling many of the rapes the woman's fault. Would you speak up? Which is worse, the rape, or the rape PLUS whipping and stoning? Think about it, Mo.

Modern free women have the freedom to report the crime, if it happens. As a result, there are probably a lot less rapes, since there is no longer the safety net for the criminal when the victim remains silent. That is called deterrence.

Stop making excuses for the shitty way islam treats women. Everyone knows better. Everyone, and that includes modern secular men who have no bias towards the women's side this.

Leave the cult, Mo, and join the happy, free world.

By the way, I can get very very aroused by the visuals of a man. Every spring is 'track pants' season, and I'm also, year round, constantly looking at the size and shape of guys' fingers. Anecdotal maybe, but the size and shape really does correlate to other parts, I think, hahaha. Tapers and all. I check out men on the buses, at work, everywhere. And you know what? No matter how horny I've been, I've never forced it on anyone. No copped feels, no coercive "c'mon, you know you want to..."s on guys who don't want to. In fact, if there is any indication at all that the person would not be horny about me in return, my horniness for them dissolves instantly without any bitter rejected feelings.

I think that in a free society, since people are raised with empathy and logic, rather than blind obedience, more and more straight men prefer to have sex with women who WANT to have sex with them, not those who are forced or even just doing it from marital obligations.

[mo3taz3nbar]

Mo, if a man gets too horny, he can go to the bathroom and take care of his problem using his hands.

i didnt say that a man gets too horney i said that the woman dont get horny by visuals as men the woman get horny by other things and about men using their hands its up to anyone to choose to be human or act as a monkey lol

especially in the muslim world where the wife must always say yes to it in obedience.

wierd claim and i dont know why you are claiming this?

The idea of their partner not enjoying the sex turns them off.

why you are assuming that muslim girls dont enjoy sex?

Are you saying that muslim men can't control their penises? And that this lack of control is so bad and weak that they must rape to relieve themselves? That's pathetic. Maybe if you guys weren't so anti-porn, the men who DO need force to get off, could just view staged force scenes and spare many a potential real life victim. The same goes for any sex that would be truly harmful if acted upon.

i didnt say that am saying the opposite and about the rape its the other way the muslim countries have the least rape rate

The reason the muslim countries REPORT lower rapes, is that the women are scared to speak up. Most of those countries KILL the victim after torturing her for a while with whippings, calling many of the rapes the woman's fault. Would you speak up? Which is worse, the rape, or the rape PLUS whipping and stoning? Think about it, Mo.

where the hell are you getting your information from?? the punishment for the man who rape a woman is death for him not for the woman

Stop making excuses for the shitty way islam treats women. Everyone knows better. Everyone, and that includes modern secular men who have no bias towards the women's side this.

i have proven enough that this is not related to islam and the Quran says the contrary of what you are claiming wether you agree or dont that doesnt make a difference its your opinion

Leave the cult, Mo, and join the happy, free world.

am the happiest guy in the world stop judging without knowledge

By the way, I can get very very aroused by the visuals of a man. Every spring is 'track pants' season, and I'm also, year round, constantly looking at the size and shape of guys' fingers. Anecdotal maybe, but the size and shape really does correlate to other parts, I think, hahaha. Tapers and all. I check out men on the buses, at work, everywhere. And you know what? No matter how horny I've been, I've never forced it on anyone. No copped feels, no coercive "c'mon, you know you want to..."s on guys who don't want to. In fact, if there is any indication at all that the person would not be horny about me in return, my horniness for them dissolves instantly without any bitter rejected feelings.

any man will be lucky to have a wife like you loool

I think that in a free society, since people are raised with empathy and logic, rather than blind obedience, more and more straight men prefer to have sex with women who WANT to have sex with them, not those who are forced or even just doing it from marital obligations.

again you are assuming that the women are forced to have sex with their husband and that they dont enjoy it.lool

[Scented Nectar]

about men using their hands its up to anyone to choose to be human or act as a monkey lol

Is it better to rape (which causes harm) or to masturbate (which causes no harm)? For a healthy man to think that rape is ok, he must be taught to not empathise with the victim. He must be convinced that she deserves it and it's his duty to punish her, and to have fun doing it. In other words, he must be taught by immoral dogmas, such as islam. If he is not naturally aroused by violence, he will only get aroused by it when falsely taught it is not really violence.

especially in the muslim world where the wife must always say yes to it in obedience.

wierd claim and i dont know why you are claiming this?

Do not the koran and muslim societies EXPECT it from wives? They are there to fuck and make babies. Also, to do housework. There are no other options for an adult woman.

why you are assuming that muslim girls dont enjoy sex?

Because most of them are missing their organs of sexual enjoyment, their clitorises. If they are lucky enough to be in the unmutilated minority, they must also be lucky enough to find their assigned husbands sexually attractive. Many women are dying from the mutilation too, by the way. In Africa 200 boys die every year from (non-sexually disabling when done correctly) circumcisions compared to more than 6,000,000 girls die from the (sexually disabling - that's why it's done!) mutilation every year, just in the Sudan alone. Here's a video with lots of facts from SkepChick on youtube (as ...user/rkwatson)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IAlEcB4KNDo

where the hell are you getting your information from?? the punishment for the man who rape a woman is death for him not for the woman

Only when there are 4 male witnesses, or something similar. Tell us what the koran says about rape and other sex laws. Many rapes are not considered rapes by abrahamic religion believers. In almost all cases, in islamic countries, the rape victim is punished by the false claims that she did it willingly or wanted it to happen or in some way brought it upon herself. It is almost always declared to not be a rape when it really is. I would put a zillion links and videos here as proof, but we all know it is true, and it's too depressing to spend much time viewing. In some cases, she may not be blamed, but is expected to 'marry' her rapist.

I wish I could magically bring freedom to those countries who are currently stuck in an islamic theocracy, especially the women, since they are getting an especially shitty ride over there.

i have proven enough that this is not related to islam and the Quran says the contrary of what you are claiming wether you agree or dont that doesnt make a difference its your opinion

You have shown only parts that clearly do NOT offer equality or freedom to women. Your quotes all confirm what I think. You have not convinced me that I am under any misconceptions regarding how islam affects women.

again you are assuming that the women are forced to have sex with their husband and that they dont enjoy it.lool

Well, the ones living as mutilated muslim sexslave/'wives' probably get treated a lot better when they pretend you non-modern men are great lovers. Your future wife will probably do the same if she wants you to treat her well. She will want the approval of her husband, and therefore society, and therefore the god her society has convinced her is real. The genuine pleasure on her face afterwards is there because she is happy she pleased you, not because she had fun from the sex. She knows that if she has a good attitude that you like regarding sex, she will get your approval.

---

Do not the koran and muslim societies EXPECT it from wives? They are there to fuck and make babies. Also, to do housework. There are no other options for an adult woman.

Clarification: By adult, I mean 9 years old (6 for the housework part), such as the prophet Mohammed's wife.

---

You could try answering Scented Nectar for a start Else it seems you have no answer to her argument... and her argument would remain an uncontested conclusion, which would hardly support your "side?" of the argument

i dont see the question there

Maybe Sae is referring to my question about what harm you are saying I should expect to have coming for dressing in an just-as-uncovered-as-men style, having unmarried sex, and watching porn? Also, I'm wondering, do men also have the same harm coming to them for those same sex 'crimes'?

By the way, this reminds me. I have heard that if a woman chooses to dress in clothing designated as men's clothing, they are punished. If I wear a boring loose factory style workshirt, with a man's tshirt under, and workboots, am I still being immodest? Or does sexuality no longer apply here, meaning it's gender only, meaning that you still need to be able to quickly identify all the lower caste women in a crowd quickly, and that they of course can't work in many jobs that require comfortable clothing.