refuting misconceptions:1-women in Islam

[mo3taz3nbar]

Actions speak much louder than words and the actions quoted here say it all.
These clerics have based their decision on the words in your book. Tell me that's not islam in action.

yes you are right but you must know which action is based on the religion and which is based on other things if you are interested about the religion itself. and also everywhere there is bad and there is good people you cant diffirintiate who is following the religion or who is not except if you know about the religion itself if you depend on actions done by people you might have the wrong believe because of some good people and also dont depend on the media to know the actions of the muslims there are a lot of muslims that live in other places that you dont know anything about

And who are you to judge a person as a badmuslim?

I thought only Allah could do that.

am not judging who is good or who is bad Allah only knows am just saying that there is good and bad muslims and Allah only knows who is good and who is bad(saying that in my opinion someone is doing something wrong doesnt mean he is all bad maybe he is better than me on other things)

[Paul the Human]

The misconception you hold is that we (atheists) think that all Muslims are guilty of terrorism and/or the mistreatment of women. We aren't that stupid. We know that not all Muslims agree with the cultures that perpetuate these things. However, many of these things are happening in the name of Islam. That is a fact.

You say that we cannot blame the religion, but must blame only the cultures. But... those cultures are built upon the religion. Perhaps you do not agree with the interpretation being used to justify such horrible things, but you can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend that your religion is not the root cause.

Just like Christians. Do most Christians think it is right to murder abortion doctors? No, of course not... but those murders are happening and the perpetrators are Christians that justify their actions with their beliefs. Just because some people disagree, doesn't mean the problems caused by religion are not real.

[mo3taz3nbar]

Mo: Let's get down to some results. Never mind theory. Show me an area, region, country, or someplace like that, which follows the koran, and now has a really good system regarding women's rights because of that influence. You claimed that islam is better for women. Show a place where that has happened and is better for women's happiness and equality in the world. Using the example you will give us, we will then be able to compare other things too, like other human rights and peace, etc.

each region or a country have the good and the bad you must see a religious muslim familly who applies the Quran to know the difference regarding how we are supposed to deal with women regardless of culture there is a lot of people applying Islam in their lives and they are so happy and those are the people that will make you know the difference and also you can know if you read the Quran and search by yourself as the media have no reason to show you the good side of the muslims who are following their religion and of course you will suspect the credability of muslim sources
my advice to you is to start searching and reading by yourself(ignore confusions by the media) and talk to muslims living in your country and anything you hear about islam wether it is good or bad you must see the source(Quran) by yourself to assure that there is no one misleading you or telling you his personal opinions

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The misconception you hold is that we (atheists) think that all Muslims are guilty of terrorism and/or the mistreatment of women. We aren't that stupid. We know that not all Muslims agree with the cultures that perpetuate these things. However, many of these things are happening in the name of Islam. That is a fact.

you are saying that but read the posts before you will realize that a lot think that this is not the case

You say that we cannot blame the religion, but must blame only the cultures. But... those cultures are built upon the religion. Perhaps you do not agree with the interpretation being used to justify such horrible things, but you can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend that your religion is not the root cause.

those cultures are not based on the religion. if they are they will be following what is said in the Quran they are applying parts of the religion and ignore the parts that contradict their culture. in egypt that is happening in few places in upper egypt and when you talk with someone about that he is doing something forbidden or bad his answer is that he is doing the norms of his familly and that his father and grandfather used to do the same and that he is not going to change what they are used to do(i clarified before about the interpretation there is a difference between interpretation and cutting from text to get different meaning to justify certain acts)

Just like Christians. Do most Christians think it is right to murder abortion doctors? No, of course not... but those murders are happening and the perpetrators are Christians that justify their actions with their beliefs. Just because some people disagree, doesn't mean the problems caused by religion are not real.

if there is a text in the bible that order these actions plz write it to me and i will try to show you how you can diffirintiate between what a religion order and what extremists do or tell me how those people are justifying their acts i really want to know about that

[Paul the Human]

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The misconception you hold is that we (atheists) think that all Muslims are guilty of terrorism and/or the mistreatment of women. We aren't that stupid. We know that not all Muslims agree with the cultures that perpetuate these things. However, many of these things are happening in the name of Islam. That is a fact.

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you are saying that but read the posts before you will realize that a lot think that this is not the case

I have read all of the posts. I don’t see anyone claiming that all Muslims support the mistreatment of women. What I see are people asking why so many Muslims do support the mistreatment of women. That is something you have failed to answer. You point to the Qur’an and say that it does not support such things, but that does not explain why so many cultures built upon the religion commit them in the name of the religion. They are getting the idea from somewhere. I concede that a lot of it is because these cultures are a couple of centuries behind the rest of the world. The idea of individual freedom is new to many of them, and for some… quite threatening.

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You say that we cannot blame the religion, but must blame only the cultures. But... those cultures are built upon the religion. Perhaps you do not agree with the interpretation being used to justify such horrible things, but you can't just bury your head in the sand and pretend that your religion is not the root cause.

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those cultures are not based on the religion. if they are they will be following what is said in the Quran they are applying parts of the religion and ignore the parts that contradict their culture. in egypt that is happening in few places in upper egypt and when you talk with someone about that he is doing something forbidden or bad his answer is that he is doing the norms of his familly and that his father and grandfather used to do the same and that he is not going to change what they are used to do(i clarified before about the interpretation there is a difference between interpretation and cutting from text to get different meaning to justify certain acts)

No true Scotsman. Yes, we get that. These Muslims are not real Muslims. It does not change the fact that Muslim countries, in which one sect or another is actually the government, these things are done in the name of Islam. If you think that is not true… it is you with the misconceptions.

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Just like Christians. Do most Christians think it is right to murder abortion doctors? No, of course not... but those murders are happening and the perpetrators are Christians that justify their actions with their beliefs. Just because some people disagree, doesn't mean the problems caused by religion are not real.

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if there is a text in the bible that order these actions plz write it to me and i will try to show you how you can diffirintiate between what a religion order and what extremists do or tell me how those people are justifying their acts i really want to know about that

That’s the thing. Verses can be interpreted in a number of ways. Almost anything can be justified if one is creative enough with the vague statements in the holy books. The point is that, whether it clearly says so in the books or not, people twist things until they say what they want them to say. Those Christians that kill abortion doctors believe they are doing god’s work. The Muslim cultures that oppress women believe that they are pleasing Allah.

In short… the religions themselves are responsible.

[downbeatplumb]

Stop just harking on about the text of holy books.

People doing things for religions sake are often 'not the sharpest tools in the box' and so are unlikely to have studied and argued over obscure references in their book of choice.

Doing whatever they do because they think thats what is says is enough for the blame to be at least partly attributed to the religion.

That Islam SEEMS to foster the culture of women oppression is enough to encourage oppression of women in its name.

You cannot seperate culture from religion as they inform each other, in a sort of masturbatory circle.

[Scented Nectar]

each region or a country have the good and the bad you must see a religious muslim familly who applies the Quran to know the difference regarding how we are supposed to deal with women regardless of culture there is a lot of people applying Islam in their lives and they are so happy and those are the people that will make you know the difference and also you can know if you read the Quran and search by yourself as the media have no reason to show you the good side of the muslims who are following their religion and of course you will suspect the credability of muslim sources

The 'good' in most of the islam run countries would be considered quite 'bad' in modern countries where no individual religions are allowed to dictate the laws, most laws that is, since there are still a few remaining ones, but most are gone.

You want me to only look to the koran or muslims to see the good side, but I have. For instance, you have presented the things that the koran says about women, but all of it has been shown to be not good at all, quite bad much of the time even. I have no reason to look further if that is the best you can present.

As for muslims, the only ones I know are living free and not practicing the religion. So, let us look at ones who say they ARE practicing it. There are many many cultures and countries, with millions and millions of people who say this. Hmm, looks pretty bad there too. Where is all that good? Maybe it does not matter to your religion whether life on earth is good because you believe in a magic afterlife where your personality goes after your body rots. Maybe that's why your so called religion of peace, like all the other religions out there, has totally failed at real peace and happiness here on earth. There is no afterlife, Mo. I think it's horrible that you have been taught that there is one, and that it has a bribery/threat system. Heaven is the bribe, and hell is the threat. They are not real, but they scare people a lot, especially if they are taught about them when they are young. Young people usually believe what they are told when the person telling them believes it too. It often guides what they believe as adults and what they teach their children.

[Killman]

Killman: You are blunt and rude, and I must admit i like that!!! I'm tempted to say keep it up kid, even though your style might offend many. I was like that 30 years ago, when I was 17, so maybe I'm biased. I haven't really stopped doing it either, because the godfans haven't stopped pissing me off.

Rude, but honest. I find it best not to sugarcoat the truth.

[Violet]

I find it best not to sugarcoat the truth.

At times perhaps this is so... but precisely what is "best" is pretty hard to know However, if you are attempting to lie to a person... I should think it best for your endeavors if you speak not truth at all, not even sugar coated truth

[mo3taz3nbar]

@paul they are showing you a really minor acts but when that is always what you see you feel that this is what most muslims do see this link:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Muslim_majority_countries
they show you some opression happen in 3 or 4 of all this muslim countries if the religion itself is the reason for that opression you will find that american or european muslims doing the same things done in afghanistan
at last i think whatever you see you must not be effected by that regarding religion if it is the truth if you keep looking for bad acts done by some religious group you will always find black sheep and i think that is not a good reason to even take into considiration

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You cannot seperate culture from religion as they inform each other, in a sort of masturbatory circle.

am not with you in this the religion is suppose to correct anything wrong even in the culture i cant see the relation between them especially when the religion is all over the world in different countries with different cultures

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You want me to only look to the koran or muslims to see the good side, but I have. For instance, you have presented the things that the koran says about women, but all of it has been shown to be not good at all, quite bad much of the time even. I have no reason to look further if that is the best you can present.

i hope you can tell me the rights that you think should have been given to the women in islam and it is not or the things that you see is not good for the women in islam

There is no afterlife, Mo. I think it's horrible that you have been taught that there is one, and that it has a bribery/threat system. Heaven is the bribe, and hell is the threat. They are not real, but they scare people a lot

thats what you think and thats your opinion all i say is that you dont want your believe to be based on confusions or based on what you hear or based on something you see is not right because your way of life is different you must identify every little aspect and regarding the heaven and hell i dont see them as bribe or threat they are results of your actions and also its just fair that the good will have a reward and the bad will get punished

especially if they are taught about them when they are young. Young people usually believe what they are told when the person telling them believes it too. It often guides what they believe as adults and what they teach their children.

maybe i was lucky that i wasnt born in a familly that think this way i dont remember them talking to me about religion at all or trying to force something on me and you cant genaralise this concept some people dont search in other religion as they dont find something wrong with their beliefs it just make sense to them and others dont care but there is others who search in every little thing to know the truth by themselves

[mo3taz3nbar]

“One of the first things I think young people, especially nowadays, should learn is how to see for
yourself and listen for yourself and think for yourself. Then you can come to an intelligent decision for
yourself.”
~ Malcolm X