refuting misconceptions:1-women in Islam

[Zen Badger]

“One of the first things I think young people, especially nowadays, should learn is how to see for
yourself and listen for yourself and think for yourself. Then you can come to an intelligent decision for
yourself.”
~ Malcolm X

Yes, and after having done exactly that, we have decided that religion is bullshit. No matter what its cast.

And no bacon? forget it!!!!!

[mo3taz3nbar]

“One of the first things I think young people, especially nowadays, should learn is how to see for
yourself and listen for yourself and think for yourself. Then you can come to an intelligent decision for
yourself.”
~ Malcolm X

Yes, and after having done exactly that, we have decided that religion is bullshit. No matter what its cast.

And no bacon? forget it!!!!!

that was pointed to anyone listening to others without identifying everything by themselves and also for anyone who trust information given by the media.if you have done everything by yourself and you really think that you found the truth plz let me hear your comment on the thread i made before about why i believe in islam http://atheistforums.org/thread-3784.html this is what i found after searching in different religions and i also hope to know the reasons that made you not believe in christianity

[downbeatplumb]

You cannot seperate culture from religion as they inform each other, in a sort of masturbatory circle.

am not with you in this the religion is suppose to correct anything wrong even in the culture i cant see the relation between them especially when the religion is all over the world in different countries with different cultures

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You honestly cant see that religions and culture are interlinked?

Cultural oppression is carried out IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. In Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Somalia in fact everywhere tainted by a controlling muslim elite.

Similar cultural oppression happens when christians rule countries in the name of their invisible friend.

[Scented Nectar]

i hope you can tell me the rights that you think should have been given to the women in islam and it is not or the things that you see is not good for the women in islam

All the rights that islam takes away from women should be given back. That is all that is necessary as far as women's rights go, since there is no need for different treatment of either gender. But once gender inequality is out of the way, there is also the issue of many other rights that you take away from both men and women. Women have to suffer with these gender-shared atrocities on top of the extra shit you guys throw at women only. Shared losses of rights like being killed for consentual sex, etc.

thats what you think and thats your opinion all i say is that you dont want your believe to be based on confusions or based on what you hear or based on something you see is not right because your way of life is different you must identify every little aspect and regarding the heaven and hell i dont see them as bribe or threat they are results of your actions and also its just fair that the good will have a reward and the bad will get punished

You believe all that stuff about heaven and hell just because a book written by humans says that it is true. And how do the writers know it's true? Some guy named Mohammed had a schizophrenic god hallucination centuries ago, back when they thought things like that were magic, and everyone believed him.

It IS a threat/bribery system. You end up doing certain things to avoid hell. Not because you really agree or disagree with whether the action is good or bad, but because you fear hell. With heaven, you do certain things because you hope it will bring you to heaven someday. Or do you really get an uncontrollable urge to tell allah how wonderful he is 5 times a day?

Believers always end up convincing themselves to agree with the morals and rules that their religion tells them to. Some morals and rules might be ones they would have agreed with even if they had not been that religion, but they agree with the rest because of the bribery/threat that they believe their gods hold over them. They believe that their gods are reading their minds too, so they try really hard to make their thoughts acceptable to whatever their religion says.

[Minimalist]

http://news.egypt.com/en/200805252799/ne...lling.html

Egyptian farmer hangs and beheads his daughter in honor killing

Gimme that ole time religion.....gimme that ole time religion......gimme that ole time religion.....it's good enough for me!

Murdering shitheads.

[Dotard]

Cultural oppression is carried out IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. In Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Somalia in fact everywhere tainted by a controlling muslim elite.

For the record;

Can I get a show of hands of all here who have been to Dubai UAE?

(Dotard raises his hand and assumes Mo3 is also.)

I didn't see any 'cultural oppression' there. Gambling, whores, bacon-cheeseburgers... great place. Fun people. Really fun people.
Fun thing to do in Dubai: Get in a taxi, preferably at night, hand the driver a $20, hold on tight and say "Drive it like you stole it."

Am I right Mo3?

[mo3taz3nbar]

You honestly cant see that religions and culture are interlinked?

Cultural oppression is carried out IN THE NAME OF ISLAM. In Afghanistan, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Indonesia, Somalia in fact everywhere tainted by a controlling muslim elite.

Similar cultural oppression happens when christians rule countries in the name of their invisible friend.

ok you see you think that there is opression in egypt for example because of the media i live in egypt and there is no opression at all(except for upper egypt which is very little part) i see that the problem is that some of you guys cant diffirintiate between culture and religion and all you see is the cultures that opress women and think that is related with islam i think you have to see some muslims from your culture

---

All the rights that islam takes away from women should be given back. That is all that is necessary as far as women's rights go, since there is no need for different treatment of either gender. But once gender inequality is out of the way, there is also the issue of many other rights that you take away from both men and women. Women have to suffer with these gender-shared atrocities on top of the extra shit you guys throw at women only. Shared losses of rights like being killed for consentual sex, etc.

lol you didnt mention one thing that you see is supposed to be given to women you are claiming things in general which are not true i was hoping for some specifications. i just know that many women convert into islam because of the rules regarding woman so i was just trying to be sure that we dont have any misunderstanding

You believe all that stuff about heaven and hell just because a book written by humans says that it is true. And how do the writers know it's true? Some guy named Mohammed had a schizophrenic god hallucination centuries ago, back when they thought things like that were magic, and everyone believed him.

its more complicated than that if you say that this book is written by a man i believe it will contain a lot of errors and contradictions.you cant just say that you have to get strong prove that a book is written by a man which i think would be easily to find the mistakes of someone lived from 1400 years(there is hundreds of proves that this book is from God i mentioned some of them before) you have to reason and use logic and examine each religion book by yourself

It IS a threat/bribery system. You end up doing certain things to avoid hell. Not because you really agree or disagree with whether the action is good or bad, but because you fear hell. With heaven, you do certain things because you hope it will bring you to heaven someday. Or do you really get an uncontrollable urge to tell allah how wonderful he is 5 times a day?

there is no single action that is bad and i just do it to avoid hell.there is some things that is forbidden and i thought at the beginning that they are not harming anyone or not affecting me and when i tried to stop them i knew that i was wrong

Believers always end up convincing themselves to agree with the morals and rules that their religion tells them to. Some morals and rules might be ones they would have agreed with even if they had not been that religion, but they agree with the rest because of the bribery/threat that they believe their gods hold over them. They believe that their gods are reading their minds too, so they try really hard to make their thoughts acceptable to whatever their religion says.

i agree with all of what you saying and this is happening and will continue to happen because this is human but all i want to correct is that this doesnt mean there is no religion that make you know why people change in religion and make up gods and start follow humans like them and in sometimes even worshiping idols. i see that what is happening this days is that models of god is being removed as the science increase and people start to see how big and complicated the universe is

For the record;

Can I get a show of hands of all here who have been to Dubai UAE?

(Dotard raises his hand and assumes Mo3 is also.)

I didn't see any 'cultural oppression' there. Gambling, whores, bacon-cheeseburgers... great place. Fun people. Really fun people.
Fun thing to do in Dubai: Get in a taxi, preferably at night, hand the driver a $20, hold on tight and say "Drive it like you stole it."

Am I right Mo3?

lool yeah dubai is fun i think these differences between muslim countries make my point for the ones who think that religion and culture are related also you guys need to see some muslims from your own cultures

[Zen Badger]

that was pointed to anyone listening to others without identifying everything by themselves and also for anyone who trust information given by the media.if you have done everything by yourself and you really think that you found the truth plz let me hear your comment on the thread i made before about why i believe in islam http://atheistforums.org/thread-3784.html this is what i found after searching in different religions and i also hope to know the reasons that made you not believe in christianity

For the record I am quite well aware that cultural variations exist across muslim countries i.e Turkey is very relaxed compared to say Afganistan. Also I have had muslim aquaintences that have been great people.

The Truth? The only thing I know about the Truth(of this universe)is that it is completely beyond humanities ability to comprehend and that anyone claiming to be in possesion of "the truth"
is a liar or a fool.(Yes, I mean religion)

Science BTW does not claim to be in possesion of the truth, only small bits of it. It is afterall the search for the truth.

There may well be an intelligent first cause to the universe, we cannot say either way.
But for sure it won't be the god of Abraham, because no one with an eye to see and appreciate
this truly amazing cosmos we live in could ever think that it was created by such a mean spirited, petty,
selfish,inept,tyrannical,emotionally immature loser like Allah or Yahweh.

[mo3taz3nbar]

The Truth? The only thing I know about the Truth(of this universe)is that it is completely beyond humanities ability to comprehend and that anyone claiming to be in possesion of "the truth"
is a liar or a fool.(Yes, I mean religion)

Science BTW does not claim to be in possesion of the truth, only small bits of it. It is afterall the search for the truth.

i didnt mean the truth of the universe i was talking regarding religion.and i also said you THINK you find the truth as the reasons that make you not believe may not be enough for me and vice versa all am saying here is that not anyone of us will want his beliefs and reasons of his beliefs whatever it is to be based in something wrong or something he is ignorant about(that applies to me of course)

There may well be an intelligent first cause to the universe, we cannot say either way.
But for sure it won't be the god of Abraham, because no one with an eye to see and appreciate
this truly amazing cosmos we live in could ever think that it was created by such a mean spirited, petty,
selfish,inept,tyrannical,emotionally immature loser like Allah or Yahweh.

you cant talk about god in the abrahamic religions as one. there is a lot of verses in the Quran that tell the jews and the christians to not say about god what they dont know and not write the book by their hands and claim it is from god
why do you think god sent jesus(pbuh) to the jews when they had the torah?and why god sent muhammed(pbuh) when there was the torah and the injeel?

[Scented Nectar]

ok you see you think that there is opression in egypt for example because of the media i live in egypt and there is no opression at all(except for upper egypt which is very little part) i see that the problem is that some of you guys cant diffirintiate between culture and religion and all you see is the cultures that opress women and think that is related with islam i think you have to see some muslims from your culture

Muslims in secular countries live with more freedom. Egypt has much less freedom than here in Canada. No one is stopping believers in secular countries from practicing their religion in whatever way they want to, as long as they don't cause harm or break laws. That means they are a bit less likely to kill their daughters and things like that. The muslim countries all have less freedoms. The cultures there are very strongly influenced by islam. Many of the laws come from the koran. In secular countries, the nonbelievers, like me, will often fight for your rights to believe what you want. The reverse does not happen in religious countries.

lol you didnt mention one thing that you see is supposed to be given to women you are claiming things in general which are not true i was hoping for some specifications.

You already have had many specifics given to you. Perhaps rereading this thread will remind you of them.

i just know that many women convert into islam because of the rules regarding woman so i was just trying to be sure that we dont have any misunderstanding

That's weird. Why do they convert because of the women rules? The only good reason for a person to make the free choice to join a religion should be because they really do believe in that particular god. What you are describing does not sound true. Especially since the women rules are all quite stifling and oppressive. The rules can't be tempting them over to your religion. They are accepting the rules because of the religion, not the other way around.

You believe all that stuff about heaven and hell just because a book written by humans says that it is true. And how do the writers know it's true? Some guy named Mohammed had a schizophrenic god hallucination centuries ago, back when they thought things like that were magic, and everyone believed him.

its more complicated than that if you say that this book is written by a man i believe it will contain a lot of errors and contradictions.you cant just say that you have to get strong prove that a book is written by a man which i think would be easily to find the mistakes of someone lived from 1400 years(there is hundreds of proves that this book is from God i mentioned some of them before) you have to reason and use logic and examine each religion book by yourself

We already know by logic that humans are the ones who write all the books on the planet. That does not need to be proven any further. It's the default. You are making the claim that a magic, powerful invisible creator being is the one that wrote or inspired the book. It is you that must provide proof of that, because it is you who is making that wild claim. Finding no errors in a book does not prove it. Also, people will disagree about there being no errors, like how it does not say anything against slavery for instance. Also, other wording that is so vague, even in the original Arabic, that many muslim sects interpret things differently from each other. Anyways, if I find no errors in a book by William Shakespeare, does that mean it was inspired by a magic being? Of course not. It simply means that I personally see the book as written with no errors. It happens sometimes. Writers do NOT always add an error on purpose for fear of offending god.

i agree with all of what you saying and this is happening and will continue to happen because this is human but all i want to correct is that this doesnt mean there is no religion that make you know why people change in religion and make up gods and start follow humans like them and in sometimes even worshiping idols. i see that what is happening this days is that models of god is being removed as the science increase and people start to see how big and complicated the universe is

God never was in science to begin with. Science only examines real things, things that can be measured and studied. If god wants to be in science, he better make himself perceivable. Do you want to know why science is always mentioned around religion? Science was minding its own business and discovered some things. The earth is not the center of the universe. Fine right? Uh oh, the religions didn't think it was fine. Their holy books had different information that was wrong, so when science showed what the truth was, through verifiable testing and evidence, religion went berserk, killing scientists and stuff like that. Then lots and lots of information showing evolution and the long age of the earth turned up. Religion freaked out again, and they are still freaking out. Their false info keeps getting proven wrong and they don't like that.

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why do you think god sent jesus(pbuh) to the jews when they had the torah?and why god sent muhammed(pbuh) when there was the torah and the injeel?

Because he is a loser who fucks up everything he tries to do. He wants everything to be good, right? So, he makes the world and people and stuff, and he says 'good', 'good', and then 'very good'. But no, he has fucked up so badly that he has to flood the planet and start over. So does he do it right this time? No. He can't even kill off his own enemy, satan, which he stupidly created. And his new humans after the flood are not good either. So, after a long long wait, he sends some jesus guy to fix things, totally forgetting that a god should not have to do that to fix things - he should be able to just think something and it will be so. Well, jesus didn't work either, god fucked up again. So, after waiting another long time trying to figure out what to do, he sends some guy named mohammed down to fix things. Does that work? Let's see. Nope. The abrahamic god sure is a loser. If he was writing on this forum, I would probably be kind of mean and make fun of him to show him that his ways are laughable, not effective.