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SN-If you want a speficic talk about omnibenevolence then let's start another thread, this one is getting a little crowded. I agree humans don't take enough credit for their good works, and try to "pass the buck" on the bad works. I think it's in human nature to deflect accountability. "whatever it is that makes them fel like a good person" was that in reference to the good deed or something else.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
No need to remain silent, please feel free to participate. If my presence makes any1 uncomfortable I'll be happy to shut up.
11- Obviously, you're a materialst in the extreme sense. The softening of the heart is in
Ezekiel 11:19-21 (King James Version)[hide]
To sum it up it you need to take the resentment, divisivness, and hate out of your mouth. Act, and speak with love and compassion with your fellow man. Keep the laws of God that are written in your nature (and in the Bible) to be good and kind to one another and to respect your superiors and that will "soften" your heart. It's a metaphor against hatred. I hope I explained that well enough.
Err... Hang on a second. First, in response to my question about "softening the heart", you imply that I am an "extreme materialist", then quote a bible verse that pertains to the "Promised return of Israel". Then you accuse me of speaking with "resentment, divisivness, and hate". Next, I am instructed to keep the laws of god that are "written in my nature" and "respect my superiors" in order to "soften" my heart. A metaphor against hatred? What the fuck are you talking about?
Words have meanings, and they should be used within the context of their actual meaning. Dancing around the question might work on the 12-year-olds that you teach in bible study, but being intentionally obtuse doesn't work with me.
Perhaps you could give a direct response to what you mean by "softening the heart" in order to allow "god" to enter it. If it is actually a euphemism (or a "metaphor", or whatever else you want to call it) for convincing the brain to accept "god", then simply admit it, and we'll move on to the next dance.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
June 10, 2010 at 12:07 am (This post was last modified: June 10, 2010 at 12:12 am by tackattack.)
@ strongbad- I'm sorry if you took it pesonally, that wasn't my intent. From your analysis of the metaphor of "a hard heart" being about the actual muscle I hve every right to assume you're a materialist. The rest wasn't referencing you at all directly, just an explanation of the metaphor. I don't think I can recall any of your posts so I would have no idea if you particularly speak with reeesentment, divisivness or hate. You particularly weren't instructed to do anything. It was directed at answering mem's request for clarification on how to hear God. I don't think I'm being obtuse or dancing around anything. If you don't think my response was direct enough here you go.
heart- defined in this context as the abstract concept of an emotional mechanism in the brain responsible for affecting will and desire. It is not a euphemism as I'm not trying to hide aything nor am I trying to lessen the connotation of the words or be polotically correct.
soften- defined in this context as to lessen in severity emotional response by resenting less in other people, which leads to divisvness and hatred.
"soften your heart"- would then be a colloquialism used to describe the lessening of resentment and resolution of subconscious/ conscious issues (thus lessening hatred, malice, intolerance, divisiveness, etc.) within the conceptual emotional mechanism in the brain responsible for emotional responces to a point where you are open to possibilities you were previously unaware. The phrased is referenind in Ezekiel of the Bible and is a common term among Christians.
It's not about rationalizing the idea that God could exist. It's about truly, consciously and subconsciously, setting aside as much bias as you can and being open to possibilities you might/ might not have been aware of.
-Side note: I'm not sure what preconceptions you have of my intents in this forum. I'm not sure where you are going with the whole song and dance thing, but it would probably be more constructive if you checked those at the door.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
@ strongbad- I'm sorry if you took it pesonally, that wasn't my intent. From your analysis of the metaphor of "a hard heart" being about the actual muscle I hve every right to assume you're a materialist. The rest wasn't referencing you at all directly, just an explanation of the metaphor. I don't think I can recall any of your posts so I would have no idea if you particularly speak with reeesentment, divisivness or hate. You particularly weren't instructed to do anything. It was directed at answering mem's request for clarification on how to hear God. I don't think I'm being obtuse or dancing around anything. If you don't think my response was direct enough here you go.
heart- defined in this context as the abstract concept of an emotional mechanism in the brain responsible for affecting will and desire. It is not a euphemism as I'm not trying to hide aything nor am I trying to lessen the connotation of the words or be polotically correct.
soften- defined in this context as to lessen in severity emotional response by resenting less in other people, which leads to divisvness and hatred.
"soften your heart"- would then be a colloquialism used to describe the lessening of resentment and resolution of subconscious/ conscious issues (thus lessening hatred, malice, intolerance, divisiveness, etc.) within the conceptual emotional mechanism in the brain responsible for emotional responces to a point where you are open to possibilities you were previously unaware. The phrased is referenind in Ezekiel of the Bible and is a common term among Christians.
It's not about rationalizing the idea that God could exist. It's about truly, consciously and subconsciously, setting aside as much bias as you can and being open to possibilities you might/ might not have been aware of.
-Side note: I'm not sure what preconceptions you have of my intents in this forum. I'm not sure where you are going with the whole song and dance thing, but it would probably be more constructive if you checked those at the door.
[/quote]
@tackattack No apology required – I rarely take things personally. I am new on this board; that’s why you can’t recall if I speak with resentment, divisiveness, or hate. I’ll assume that you didn’t actually direct that false dichotomy towards me, implying that those three approaches are the only ones I could take.
I believe that you have effectively admitted that “soften the heart” actually means “change your mind”, which of course happens only in the brain. However, I take issue with the notion that in order to change one’s mind to “hear” god, one needs to lessen resentment, hatred, malice, etc. You are contending that the reason a person cannot hear god is that the mind is cluttered with the negative emotions you outline, and that if a person would set aside all of this negative “bias”, the mind would become “open” to god.
I say – rubbish! I certainly can’t speak for all atheists, but I’m pretty sure that most on this board were convinced that god existed at some point in their lives, and have since opened their minds to the more likely probability that god does NOT exist. This changing of the mind was not brought about by increasing thoughts of hatred, malice, intolerance, etc., but by reasoning and deep thinking. We have freed our minds of superstition and fantasy, and have accepted the reality that gods are man-made constructs.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
@ strongbad-
Yes a simplistic definition of “soften the heart” would be “change your mind”, which of course happens only in the brain.
I'm not saying theist or atheist has more resentment, hatred, malice, etc than the other. I am contending that the reason a person cannot hear god is that the mind is cluttered with the negative emotions you outline, correct, and that if a person would set aside all of this negative “bias”, the mind would become “open” to god.
Everyone has a degree of bias.Everyone has some degree of resentment or unresolved issues either conscious or subconscious, that is the foundation of the Christian idea that the human heart (or mind/consciousness more precisely) is inheritly flawed. I am saying that if you truly knew God and now no longer believe in God it's because of something you either resent or have left unresolved. For me persoanly I used to believe blindly that God was. I never questioned and when that blind faith was questioned it created issues I couldn't resolved. I dwelled on those and thus "hardened my heart". I went through a frantic period of trying to find where God was through different religions, then realized I wasn't going to find those answers because no one was there to answer. Later in my life I studied and researched from a more objective perspective and decided to allow for that possibility again. I was just sharing the process that I took for me to hear God, better than before, with faith not blind faith. You hold that God is less likely to exist than exist, good for you. The deep thinking your referencing without a resolution are the unresolved issues. The deeper you think on them and don't resolve them the harder your heart gets. There are also some atheists who truly have malevolence towards God/Gods/Religion/Abrahamic God/Christianity, I'm not saying anyone in particular it's just that some do.
You've accepted the reality that the God concept is a man-made construct, which I agree with. You've also accepted that you can't hear God, and therefore he most likely doesn't exist. That's a very reasonable position. I believe God expects only a response proportional to the light/revelation given.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
@ strongbad-
Yes a simplistic definition of “soften the heart” would be “change your mind”, which of course happens only in the brain.
I'm not saying theist or atheist has more resentment, hatred, malice, etc than the other. I am contending that the reason a person cannot hear god is that the mind is cluttered with the negative emotions you outline, correct, and that if a person would set aside all of this negative “bias”, the mind would become “open” to god.
Everyone has a degree of bias.Everyone has some degree of resentment or unresolved issues either conscious or subconscious, that is the foundation of the Christian idea that the human heart (or mind/consciousness more precisely) is inheritly flawed. I am saying that if you truly knew God and now no longer believe in God it's because of something you either resent or have left unresolved. For me persoanly I used to believe blindly that God was. I never questioned and when that blind faith was questioned it created issues I couldn't resolved. I dwelled on those and thus "hardened my heart". I went through a frantic period of trying to find where God was through different religions, then realized I wasn't going to find those answers because no one was there to answer. Later in my life I studied and researched from a more objective perspective and decided to allow for that possibility again. I was just sharing the process that I took for me to hear God, better than before, with faith not blind faith. You hold that God is less likely to exist than exist, good for you. The deep thinking your referencing without a resolution are the unresolved issues. The deeper you think on them and don't resolve them the harder your heart gets. There are also some atheists who truly have malevolence towards God/Gods/Religion/Abrahamic God/Christianity, I'm not saying anyone in particular it's just that some do.
You've accepted the reality that the God concept is a man-made construct, which I agree with. You've also accepted that you can't hear God, and therefore he most likely doesn't exist. That's a very reasonable position. I believe God expects only a response proportional to the light/revelation given.
[/quote]
@tackattack - Ok, we’ve firmly established that the heart is not actually involved in matters of god – it’s all in the brain. Now you are asserting that the reason that one cannot hear god is because of either some resentment they harbor or because of some unresolved issues they might have. You further assert that if a person once believed in god and no longer does, it is because of this supposed resentment and/or lack of resolution. Again, I’ll disagree. I have no resentment to being indoctrinated with religion as a child; I fully understand why my parents did this. And, the deep thinking that I spoke of actually led to the resolution that in all likelihood there is no god. My mind is not closed to the (extremely remote) possibility that a god exists, but the complete lack of evidence for any sort of deity has led my mind to the conclusion/resolution that none does exist.
I take the position that if a person “believes” in a god, they have convinced themselves (or more likely were convinced by others) that the delusion of god is real.
"If there are gaps they are in our knowledge, not in things themselves." Chapman Cohen
"Shit-apples don't fall far from the shit-tree, Randy." Mr. Lahey
Resentment, by the definition we're using, is a nagging unfulfillment. You were completely satisfied with religion before you left it?
Then you're positively asserting that belief in God (any God) is either self/other coersion and a fixed belief that is either false or derived from deception. I'll bite, cite your proof then because that's not my view of God.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
June 12, 2010 at 4:32 am (This post was last modified: June 12, 2010 at 4:33 am by Purple Rabbit.)
(June 9, 2010 at 8:37 pm)tackattack Wrote: If you don't like the web slang capitonym (correctly defined by Rhizzo) then how about homonym further deliniated in common language with a capitol first letter.
6 (Ad.1)- Agreed.
7 -Yes atheists pick, Christians pick too. However, from my experience here specifically a lot of athesits deny the good and over emphasize the bad. Even the skeptics annotated Guide to the Bible has a section of Good things in the Bible. As to where in the Bible God is Love
Theists are making the claim involving a god concept, not atheists. Theists should state and define exactly what they mean by it, not atheists. It is true that atheists should verify specifics of the claim made by theists in debate. Practice is that there is no one coherent formulation of theists of the god concept and that in many cases theists "define" it by referring to books like the bible or the quaran. This sloppy behaviour on what theists generally regard as the most basic fact of their lives, invites atheists to a practice of guessing which part of the bible are within the concept in a specific case. I personally hold the position that no coherent concept of god has ever been presented to me and that the god claim makes no sense. Your attempt to "clarify" for me is a glaring example of the many evasive manaouvres theists use to suggest clarity of an ill defined concept.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
I fail to see the relevance of whether one side is right or the other side is wrong....
It is theists that cling to the "rightness" of their belief and the whole "we are better than you" childish school yard nonsense that goes with it.
i would posit that Atheists really shouldn't give a tinkers toss whether they are right or wrong ....They are far more interested in the discovery of just WTF IS going on and how best to relate to it.
What is amusing is ...Well just 'What if Atheists are right?'
THIS is one of the most frustrating and embarrassing things that theists have to deal with...it is something that haunts their subconscious even though they will never articulate it....
There is NO GOD!!
"The Universe is run by the complex interweaving of three elements: energy, matter, and enlightened self-interest." G'Kar-B5
(June 12, 2010 at 5:59 am)KichigaiNeko Wrote: There is NO GOD!!
Worse, there is no god concept.
"I'm like a rabbit suddenly trapped, in the blinding headlights of vacuous crap" - Tim Minchin in "Storm"
Christianity is perfect bullshit, christians are not - Purple Rabbit, honouring CS Lewis
Faith is illogical - fr0d0
