The Tower of Babel

[Redbeard The Pink]

Ok Ronny, you seem to be a pretty typical catholic bloke with a pretty typical approach to Biblical inerrancy. You've asserted (if I understand you correctly) that Jesus and the New Testament are all literal, and that the Old Testament is mostly metaphors between whose lines we must read to get the over-arching message, and that message is that God is patient, loving, and forgiving, and that man is wicked and rebellious.


First off, that is a drastic oversimplification of the Old Testament, and it aims to sweep so much under the carpet. OT Jehovah is not a kind god. He repeatedly wipes out huge sections of the human population (including nearly everyone in that whole Flood thing that's technically scientifically impossible), he condones and regulates slavery (in both Testaments, actually), he treats rape as if it's not a big deal while eating shellfish and homosexuality are both named as abominations, he demands the blood of animals and humans (including children) as sacrifice for arbitrary sleights for which he invents the rules and punishments...your god is a dick, dude. In both Testaments.


His ability to forgive revolves around the spilling of blood, up to and including that of himself/his only child. You know how many people have to die before I can forgive someone? Zero. I don't have to hurt so much as a fly in order to grant forgiveness for wrongs committed against me.


Now, this creates an interesting dilemma, because it means that Jehovah can't be both all-loving and all-powerful. It means that either Jehovah chooses to never forgive unless someone is punished, or he is unable to forgive unless someone is punished.


If he chooses to levy punishment for forgiveness, he's not even as loving as I am, for I can grant forgiveness to my enemies without having to punish them. If he's not as loving as I am, then he isn't all-loving.


If he is unable to forgive without punishing, then I, a mere human, can do something he can't, which means he isn't all-powerful. Furthermore, it means that he is not the objective source of universal morality because there are apparently rules which he has no choice but to adhere to.


You also seem to be ignoring some things about the New Testament. If the OT is Jehovah-inspired, but written by men (and therefore factually inaccurate by implication), how is that any different from the New Testament. The NT books, just like the OT books, were written  years after the events are supposed to have happened, mostly by anonymous and pseudonymous human authors and then redacted, rewritten, and recopied various times before even beginning to resemble the versions we have now. By your own standard, how is the NT any more or less metaphorical than the OT?


Furthermore, if the NT is literally true, I have some questions about it.


When the women got to the tomb on Easter morning, was the stone already rolled away, or did an angel roll it away after they got there?


On that same morning, how many women went to the tomb, and which ones?


If the creation account in Genesis is metaphorical, why does Paul write in his epistles as if it's historical fact?


When Jesus arrived at Jerusalem the week of his betrayal, how many donkeys did he ride into the city? Was it one, or two?


According to the genealogies presented for Jesus in the Gospels, who was Joseph's father?


Was Jesus crucified on the first day of Passover, or the next day?


If God didn't really lose his son (seeing as how he was allegedly raised from the dead and now lives in Heaven), then how is that actually a sacrifice?


Finally, if Jesus himself is so great and the OT is just a metaphor, why does Jesus expressly uphold all OT law? Why does he say that calling people "fool" puts you in danger of hellfire, but then turn around and call various people fools throughout the gospels? Why does he condone and reinforce slavery? Should we really be emulating this guy?

[Wyrd of Gawd]

Ref. Post #683: Damn, all of those hard questions give me ulcers.

Why don't the main characters have Jewish names?

[Rhondazvous]

The story about the Tower of Babel presents us with some interesting questions. In this story, the inhabitants of the Earth move further away from the Garden of Eden after Adam's eviction therefrom. They all speak the same language and pretty much stick together. There is no confusion among them. No misunderstanding. No war. The Bible tells us they were all of one mind (Genesis 11:1-9). The God of the Bible comes down to see this. When he notes that they are united and their unity strengthens them, he is displeased. They plan to build a tower up to heaven. The God of the Bible doesn't merely laugh this off as foolish hubris. Rather, he sees it as a serious threat and takes steps to put a stop to it. He confuses their language so they can’t understand one another. I cannot see the Creator of the universe acting this way. But the creator of an Earth-centered fantasy world which does not exist outside the pages of the Bible did act this way. Let's take a look at this passage and see if any of the following questions seem a tad odd.


We might also see the synergy of people working together. A community where people work toward common goals—where nobody says “that‘s mine” can be imagined. And if we can imagine a thing, we can build it.

I guess you know nothing of human nature? Men do what men do. God does what God does.

Look to the "Word of God" personified as your guide. Aka Jesus. The rest is subjective: inspired by God; written by men. Common sense of those times, wisdom and discernment is needed for the OT.

Two themes are prevalent to me throughout the old testament: God's Patience & Love, and man's constant disobedience and rebellion. The ONLY solution was Jesus Christ! Its basically a backdoor to Heaven. Because we are unable to get there; as the Babylonians tried building towers to it! Unsuccessfully I might add. The symbolism is astounding, as is your negligence in seeing the relationship to mans rebellion! But again, you need open awareness to read these stories.

Jesus paid the wages of sin for us. "He who was without sin, became sin." And put sin to death on the cross! Now, sin has no exclusive powers. Death [was] only meant for sinners when the curse was adjudicated in the beginning. Christ broke that bond in living a perfect life, but dying anyway.

God said: "It is kindness that I want, not animal sacrifice." Only through human experience can we demonstrate that "act". And no amount of "omni_____." will do that. Not without God making it that way for us!

Moral of story? God gets to make us real, instead of robots! Real means: actually having a choice separate and apart from any influence.

And as for evidence? He says throughout the bible that we have sufficient evidence!



2 Peter 3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

The stories about Jesus are no more or less "subjective" than the rest of the Bible. Taking part and leaving the rest is classic cherry picking.

Which part can I leave since Jesus said none of it can be changed until heaven and earth pass away. So what you're saying is in direct contrast to what Jesus said.

[Rhondazvous]

Rather presumptuous of you to say I have no kindness? "True colors" are more revealing than a lack of kindness my troubled adversary. Seek help.

Knock it off with the "Kind Christian" bullshit. I clearly remember the tantrum/bitch fit you threw you in your last series of posts a while back. It was very memorable. 
And far from kind.

Aw, girl, you know youre not supposed to remember stuff like that. To fully understand Christians, you have to think like a chicken and wake up to a new world every day. At least their job would be easier if we did.

[Rhondazvous]

I don't know, Ronny.  How does it work for altar boys about to be ass-raped by your pervert priests?

Still more reasons to believe that no intelligent life exists on this site. Always moving away from the debate at hand with personal attacks & bullshit.

Then when I/we get fed up with your shit and lash back... you push the "button" on us like the true coward you are.

Just a bunch of slimy, foulmouthed resident rodents. Deserving of nothing more than a drive-by potshot. You could at least come up with something
original and interesting that is worthy of my time and energy in typing a response..... was I actually talking about "kindness"?!

"Bullshit" isn't a very kind word and it certainly isn't conducive to evangelism. What would Jesus do? If you're fed up, shake the dust from your feet and move on.

[ronedee]

Finally, if Jesus himself is so great and the OT is just a metaphor, why does Jesus expressly uphold all OT law? Why does he say that calling people "fool" puts you in danger of hellfire, but then turn around and call various people fools throughout the gospels? Why does he condone and reinforce slavery? Should we really be emulating this guy?

Jesus concurred with God the Father that men do [not] do God's Will. So, how are we to sort through the myriad of doctrine? With the Holy Spirit! But, how do men as yourself, listen to God, when all you hear is yourself? Jesus stressed the Law, specifically the Ten Commandments. And God, as Our Father! That is sufficient to me as a summary of the OT. I don;t need anymore info. As far as the NT? There are over 26,000 manuscripts that were scrutinized and compared to each other over the millennia. If that isn't proof reading, I don't know what is? There is no other publication that has had as much scrutiny... and to this day!

Jesus said. "The Kingdom is within." Look and ye shall find. Ask and the door will be open to you." Where do I personally come into this? Or men in general? Nowhere. All I am is a witness to actually looking and finding God. But not in any way or manner that will find Him for you. Just a witness to the truth of God. That is all.

As I mentioned to the op, we are here for the "human experience", and to do God's will. That is to: "Love one another, as He has Loved us." You and the others say that He hasn't loved us because all He does is cause/let pain & suffering happen. To me? The GIFT of Life itself is worth way more than any amount of suffering here on Earth! If the "promise" is true, as I believe? No amount of any adversity will matter to me. NOTHING!

Unfortunately, none of that makes any sense to people like you. I accept that fact. I'm not trying to change you at all. Quite the contrary! I'm here for my own selfish reasons. To strengthen my own Faith. I look to ONE of you to topple my Faith in some intelligent fashion. It hasn't happened. But, I will keep searching for that person or persons to put doubt about God in my mind. So far? Zilch, nada... nothing!

btw..... thanks for your intelligent question & civil response to me! Ron

[ronedee]

"Bullshit" isn't a very kind word and it certainly isn't conducive to evangelism. What would Jesus do? If you're fed up, shake the dust from your feet and move on.

So, I'm supposed to "turn the other cheek" as the others here get to stick it up my ass?

Jesus requires me to Love my brother, not to like any of them. Or to put up with any bullshit.

No... I'll keep the dust on my feet for awhile, and use my sharp tongue when necessary.

[ronedee]

I never pushed any button on you fuckface...except the one where you keep defending pervert priests.  And you deserve that.

Why do you do that?  Are you really so fucking shameless that it does not bother your catholic conscience?  Do you even have a conscience?

What's your problem, Ronny.  Aside from being a dumb catholic fuckhead?

You asshole. You know exactly where I stand on this subject! Do I need to go back through my posts to show you again
that I actually put some of those scumbags away! I have no need to prove anything to you, or anyone here!

All you care about is your own dialog. You think you are entertaining your ilk. When they know as I do, you are just a rude ignorant ass.

I never reply to you, because you don't know how to have a decent conversation. Your opinion is clouded w/ fear and hate. Fear that
you might learn something. And hate for anything that is different than your own perverted thought process.

No, I have no use for foul loudmouths as yourself, who would wilt like a steamed veggy in the light of day.

Keep hurling your wads of shit at me like the 2 year old you act like. It only proves my point(s) over, and over again.

[Angrboda]

What a douche.

[Huggy Bear]

I guess you know nothing of human nature? Men do what men do. God does what God does.

Look to the "Word of God" personified as your guide. Aka Jesus. The rest is subjective: inspired by God; written by men. Common sense of those times, wisdom and discernment is needed for the OT.

Two themes are prevalent to me throughout the old testament: God's Patience & Love, and man's constant disobedience and rebellion. The ONLY solution was Jesus Christ! Its basically a backdoor to Heaven. Because we are unable to get there; as the Babylonians tried building towers to it! Unsuccessfully I might add. The symbolism is astounding, as is your negligence in seeing the relationship to mans rebellion! But again, you need open awareness to read these stories.

Jesus paid the wages of sin for us. "He who was without sin, became sin." And put sin to death on the cross! Now, sin has no exclusive powers. Death [was] only meant for sinners when the curse was adjudicated in the beginning. Christ broke that bond in living a perfect life, but dying anyway.

God said: "It is kindness that I want, not animal sacrifice." Only through human experience can we demonstrate that "act". And no amount of "omni_____." will do that. Not without God making it that way for us!

Moral of story? God gets to make us real, instead of robots! Real means: actually having a choice separate and apart from any influence.

And as for evidence? He says throughout the bible that we have sufficient evidence!



2 Peter 3:5 But they deliberately forget that long ago by God's word the heavens came into being and the earth was formed out of water and by water.

The stories about Jesus are no more or less "subjective" than the rest of the Bible. Taking part and leaving the rest is classic cherry picking.

Which part can I leave since Jesus said none of it can be changed until heaven and earth pass away.  So what you're saying is in direct contrast to what Jesus said.

Many of you guys claim to have attended church at some point in your lives, but apparently you've learned nothing. The Law was given to the Jews because that what they chose, the Law didn't exist until Moses..... what Law was Abraham under? The law was given to those who thought they could get to heaven by being a "good person", therefore there has to be a system that tells you what you can and cannot do... the Law, which no one could keep, I may add

You are correct the law did not pass away, we're just no longer under the law, we're under grace. We've been granted a pardon from the law freely given to whom ever wants it. Does a presidential pardon get rid of the law?

Being a christian is not about following rules, You're free to do whatever you want to do.

Do two people who decide to get married agree to live by a bunch of rules, or do they agree to love one another? If they Love one another than they naturally do things to make the other happy...

The only law we have is love.... got it?