fairy tales and lies

[dyresand]

religion the greatest lie ever sold.

[drfuzzy]

Um . . . whut?  Sorry, cantor, but you just went WAY over my head somehow.   Maybe I drop IQ points on the days I play for Mass.  (uh oh!)  Could you, maybe, rephrase that - - like you would explain it to a 12-year old, please?   It sounds pretty but I don't quite follow . . .

Sorry, it's a Gwynnie thing.

The thing about Elijah ain't about feeding a real person firstly so much as it is about feeding Spirit, in the sense that before material consequence can be addressed immaterial consequence must be considered. Like if we're in a rush to feed our starving children we might just knock the neighbor upside the head and take his bread. Of course, that's the prophet spin on the deal.

The message that a representative of the church should be valued over family is also included for the skeptic. 

All scripture, regardless of who spins it up, contains these inherent dualities. 

Oh right, thank you.  Believers in the inerrancy of the Bible will always flip to a "you're not supposed to take it literally!" stance as soon as you pull out one of these thousands of examples.  It's not literal, it's an allegory.  It's not about literal food, it's about spiritual food.  It doesn't mean what it says because ________.   
    As I understand it, there are whole degree paths in seminaries on apologetics - studying how to tell bible readers that it doesn't mean what it says, here's what it REALLY means, because I have a degree.  There has been a long-standing tradition of "only the priests know what it means".  That's why they fought so hard against translations of the bible in the common language of the people.  That means they had to work to elevate their level of bullshit.

    It's still bullshit, based on fairy tales that are bullshit.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I think the idea that we are outgrowing fairy tale is interesting.  Sorry if this derails your post (and I'm sorry you work in a church...:p).  Feel free to rant away though!

Humans seem to thrive on story telling, and that is a great thing.  I do notice that modern fairy tales are changing the narrative, and the whole way we view stories.  Stories with one dimensional villains are not as widely liked, and heroes with some major flaws have become more popular.  Black and white stories are not even fun for kids anymore.  

I read old stories with my daughter, like Jack and the Beanstalk, and I think, what IS the moral of the story?  Burgle and murder the guy who lives in a bigger house than you, and you will be rewarded?  That's not a god message.  Make deals with and have faith in shady strangers where-in they promise you a handful of "magic beans", if you just give them a valuable cow right now?  (Can anyone say Televangelist). That's not a good message either.

Almost no stories in the Bible have much moral value to us today.  I like how the new Noah tired to put a modern perspective on that old chestnut, and I think did pretty well.  I can't wait until it is more widely accepted AS a fairy tale, so more of the stories can get make-overs.

Many of the biblical stories are ridiculous if you don't understand their purpose.  They are intended to show one of the Ten Commandments from Exodus chapter 34 in action and to remind the reader/listener of the basic rule, which is to believe and to obey without exception.  In some of the stories the characters were real creeps but as long as they did what they were told to do without exception they were held in high esteem.  If they disobeyed and refused to carry out what they had been told to do them they got dumped on.

For instance, in 1 Samuel chapter 15 Samuel appoints Saul as king of Israel at the Lord's direction. The Samuel tells Saul that the Lord wants him to slaughter the Amalekites, kill all of the men, women, infants and nursing children, and all of their ox, sheep, camels, and donkeys.  Now Saul wasn't a complete bastard so he showed some mercy.  That pissed the Lord off and he regretted that he had made Saul king and then plotted to have David overthrow him.  

An interesting verse is 1 Samuel 15:15, in which Saul refers to the Lord as Samuel's God and not his.  https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?
search=1%20Samuel%2015:15&version=CEB;CEV;JUB;MEV;VOICE   We know from history that the ancient emperors referred to themselves as God.  So in this story Samuel was an envoy to the vassal king Saul, who didn't carry out his orders.  Consequently he was kicked to the curb because he didn't obey.

[robvalue]

I would say that if I have to have anyone else tell me what the bible really means, God has failed to communicate with me effectively.

[Cyberman]

Greedy-ass pastors just fucking love this story, I'd bet.

"Ministers say that they teach charity. This is natural. They live on alms. All beggars teach that others should give."
-- Robert Green Ingersoll, "The Truth" (1897)

[brewer]

religion the greatest lie ever sold.

It's only a lie when you're not committed to the delusion(s).

[Lek]

As some of you know by now, playing Mass on Sunday always leaves me with posting fodder.  Then I log in for a dose of sanity, and drop some of my rambling ruminations into a thread.  Take it or leave it, discuss it or not - - just THANK YOU for being here.

Do you make enough money playing for a mass that you can't quit the job.  Why continue to punish yourself?

FAIRY TALES
As I drove to work, I heard an NPR interview of Michael Cunningham.  This is a brilliant author who has recently focused on re-writing fairy tales.  When you condense his statements about fairy tales in modern times, the meta-message was: we have outgrown them.  They no longer make sense to us, because they tend to be built on a very black and white dichotomy.  (You have the evil character, the hero, and the princess, in some combination, most of the time.)  So I went into the choir loft with "we have outgrown our fairy tales, and secular sources understand this".

  

We haven't outgrown fairy tales at all.  Kids and adults love them.  Many "chick flicks" are fairy tales.  

Then I hear a reading from 1 Kings 17.  Elijah goes to a widow - she and her household are starving, she only has a handful of flour left to make a cake for herself and her son.  Elijah orders her to make HIM a cake first, and trust in the Lord.  Because she did so, her jars of flour and oil magically replenished themselves for a long time to come, and her family ate well.
     The believers in the pews accept this as a fabulous example of the poor having faith and being rewarded for it.  The atheist in the organ loft is saying "wtf???"  1) starving children.  But this total stranger usurper jerk had her feed HIM everything they had, taking food away from little ones who don't understand why the adult prophet is eating and they are not.  2) And so the book gives an example of god preventing a widow and her son from starving, because they believed.  There are believers starving everywhere - and god could prevent it everywhere, easily - IF the story is true.  If this story is true, it only makes god a bigger asshole.

It is a story about about a woman who received from God through her faith in him.  Believers starving has nothing to do with the theme of these passages.  Jesus told us we would suffer in this life.  We all suffer, believers and non-believers alike.  If God promised us we wouldn't, it would be a different matter
.  

AND A PSALM OF PRAISE, aka LIES, LIES, and more LIES
Psalm 146 (excerpts):  "the Lord gives food to the hungry; gives sight to the blind; the Lord loves the just, but the way of the wicked he thwarts"
       The believer in the pews sing this with gusto. They revel in the greatness of their god.  The atheist in the organ loft is saying that anybody over the age of 10, in any city on this planet, knows that these statements are lies.  The believers are not saved from starvation.  The blind stay blind.  The "just" are often persecuted.  And the wicked have the most money and power everywhere on the planet.  Nope.  I'm not buying it.  

God did and does these things, both for believers and non-believers.  Most of Jesus miracles were done for non-believers.  Also, in a true sense, revealing himself to people who don't believe is giving sight to the blind.  Giving spiritual insight is giving food.  The Lord does love both the just and the unjust alike.  And he does thwart the way of the wicked, who will be punished for their wickedness, and so to will the just be rewarded for their being just.  You and christians alike should listen to the readings with an open mind.

[KevinM1]

I would say that if I have to have anyone else tell me what the bible really means, God has failed to communicate with me effectively.

Just wanted to say that this post hasn't received enough love.

[drfuzzy]

As some of you know by now, playing Mass on Sunday always leaves me with posting fodder.  

Do you make enough money playing for a mass that you can't quit the job.  Why continue to punish yourself?
             I desperately needed as many Masses as I could get up until a few months ago.  I cut down my hours, but the choir director made me promise to stay until Xmas, at the very least.  (I'm sure she'll start lobbying "until Easter" any day now, I will have to make a decision.)  I do need to find something to take its place.  Thanks for asking.

So I went into the choir loft with "we have outgrown our fairy tales, and secular sources understand this".

  
We haven't outgrown fairy tales at all.  Kids and adults love them.  Many "chick flicks" are fairy tales.  
    Oh, very true, we still love our fantasies.  It's the pure "good vs. evil" view of the world that Mr. Cunningham was talking about.  

Then I hear a reading from 1 Kings 17.  

It is a story about about a woman who received from God through her faith in him.  Believers starving has nothing to do with the theme of these passages.  Jesus told us we would suffer in this life.  We all suffer, believers and non-believers alike.  If God promised us we wouldn't, it would be a different matter.     Yes, I have heard and read all sorts of apologetics about how this was a reward for real faith.  I just don't buy it any longer. 

Psalm 146 (excerpts):  "the Lord gives food to the hungry; gives sight to the blind; the Lord loves the just, but the way of the wicked he thwarts"
      The believers are not saved from starvation.  The blind stay blind.  The "just" are often persecuted.  And the wicked have the most money and power everywhere on the planet.  

Also, in a true sense, revealing himself to people who don't believe is giving sight to the blind.  Giving spiritual insight is giving food.  The Lord does love both the just and the unjust alike.  And he does thwart the way of the wicked, who will be punished for their wickedness, and so to will the just be rewarded for their being just.  You and christians alike should listen to the readings with an open mind.

I have heard that over and over, since I was a little girl. "Giving spiritual insight is giving food."  "Revealing himself is giving sight." "They'll be punished after they die."  Well, I see no evidence of god.  I know decades of unanswered prayer. Spiritual insight isn't helping the children who don't have enough to eat.  "He'll be punished" doesn't help billions of innocent victims.  I'm done with "reading with an open mind", which translates as assume that this is the word of GAWD, and if you believe, a preacher give you a spin on what you just read that will enrich you.  

   Nope, Lek.  Not for me.  I spent decades breaking free of this stuff.  I have most of the Bible memorized, and I find the book offensive - - I wish my brain had an "erase" button.  I'm not going to try to talk you out of your interpretation, but I don't buy it.  For someone who doesn't believe god exists, it's all lies - - it can't be anything else! So I stand behind the statements in blue.  But I wish you well.  Thank you for your concern.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

I would say that if I have to have anyone else tell me what the bible really means, God has failed to communicate with me effectively.

God was just the title given to the big wig in the ruling empire in the Middle East area during ancient times.  There's no celestial deity of any kind in this solar system. 

\]Most atheists are just as gullible as theists when it comes to the God character.  They believe even though they deny.  That's because people have been so thoroughly brain-washed that it's almost impossible for most of them not to believe.  So they deny but they also believe.