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RE: I completely agree.
December 1, 2015 at 8:53 pm
(December 1, 2015 at 8:24 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: (December 1, 2015 at 7:58 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: Imagine you and I are having a disagreement about, say, the doctrine of cuius regio, eius religio as presented in the Treaty of Westphalia. Rather than concede any of your points, I lose my temper and beat you to a bloody pulp.
Does this make me 'right'?
Boru
At that point is anyone contesting whether you are?
1984 had an interesting concept at the end. That God is power. Able to make people believe fundamental untruths, to force its will on anyone or anything. In the end thats what happens to Winston Smith and then he is disposed of. The very idea in Winstons mind that opposed Big Brothers philosophy was redacted and eradicated before he was killed.
When noone is left to say might is wrong whats the difference? Isn't that how much of history has been written?
The fact of the matter is; if you have enough power you can make any falsehood you want in anyones eyes a truth. I'm not saying might is right but if might wanted to it could make me believe that. With a sufficient amount of might you could make everyone believe that. At that point isn't it true?
No, it isn't true at all. Falsehood remains falsehood. Winston may have been convinced that three fingers were four fingers, but that doesn't make three equal to four. If might makes right in the sense of belief equating with truth, then Jesus of Nazareth is your personal Saviour and was crucified and died for your sins - a LOT of force went into making a LOT of people believe this, but that doesn't make the belief any less false.
Boru
‘I can’t be having with this.’ - Esmeralda Weatherwax
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RE: I completely agree.
December 2, 2015 at 11:11 am
(This post was last modified: December 2, 2015 at 11:12 am by Reforged.)
(December 1, 2015 at 8:53 pm)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: (December 1, 2015 at 8:24 pm)RaphielDrake Wrote: At that point is anyone contesting whether you are?
1984 had an interesting concept at the end. That God is power. Able to make people believe fundamental untruths, to force its will on anyone or anything. In the end thats what happens to Winston Smith and then he is disposed of. The very idea in Winstons mind that opposed Big Brothers philosophy was redacted and eradicated before he was killed.
When noone is left to say might is wrong whats the difference? Isn't that how much of history has been written?
The fact of the matter is; if you have enough power you can make any falsehood you want in anyones eyes a truth. I'm not saying might is right but if might wanted to it could make me believe that. With a sufficient amount of might you could make everyone believe that. At that point isn't it true?
No, it isn't true at all. Falsehood remains falsehood. Winston may have been convinced that three fingers were four fingers, but that doesn't make three equal to four. If might makes right in the sense of belief equating with truth, then Jesus of Nazareth is your personal Saviour and was crucified and died for your sins - a LOT of force went into making a LOT of people believe this, but that doesn't make the belief any less false.
Boru
It doesn't make it any less false because you have not been subjected to the required force to warp your mind. If you were subjected to the inquisition would you still have the same perspective? The same grasp of what you currently perceive as facts?
My point is that if a sufficient amount of might was implemented everyone would either be convinced or coerced into thinking the reasons for it are right.
At the point when noone is left to call it wrong noone is around to contest whether might was right. Whether its true takes a back seat.
Truth is something that exists regardless of whether we perceive it. It exists outside of a statement or a point of view expressing it. But whether something or someone is right or wrong? Thats a subjective judgement on truth made by a human and human judgement is susceptible to coercion.
Big Brother was right... according to Winstons senses. He had been worked over so much he actually believed three is four. At the point everyone has been coerced to truly believe a statement what is the difference between a world that knows something is true and a world that believes something is true? How would you tell which is which if you were an inhabitant of one of those parallel worlds? Would it actually be possible to prove conclusively?
"That is not dead which can eternal lie and with strange aeons even death may die."
- Abdul Alhazred.
