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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 7:19 pm
I don't dictate how anyone should behave in general, I offer my opinion. Only in drastic circumstances would I actually enforce my morality. "Good" and "evil" are arbitrary labels, I don't find them particularly useful.
I don't know what the misunderstanding is. I care about people, not just about myself. If I only cared about myself, I would act very differently.
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 7:27 pm
(December 30, 2015 at 5:50 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Some feel that there is no line between them, or that if there is it is an outlier scenario. Not that this matters, because your comments won;t be capable of expressing that line in any case, it is a parody, two ludicrous statements set up as boundary conditions. Good luck measuring anything that way.
The meteor is incapable of evil, it is not a moral actor. We can choose to either help Carl, or not...and because we are moral actors, this would be an issue of morality. Ask yourself this, would it be right or wrong to help Carl, if you could prevent him from being hit by the meteor? However you answer -that- is an example of your morality. Morality is not simply dictating how other moral agents should behave,this is an absurd summary of morality. We both have a morality regarding Carls situation regardless of whether either of us ever dictate that morality to another person or not.
I eat a cheeseburger, because I'm hungry.
I push Carl out of the way, because he's in my fantasy football league.
I post on atheistforums.org, because I'm bored.
Where is the necessity for good and evil, or right and wrong? Why would you even think to include good and evil or right and wrong?
Do you believe the inconvenience of losing a player from my fantasy football league would make me not pushing Carl out of the way Evil?
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 7:47 pm
(December 30, 2015 at 7:19 pm)robvalue Wrote: I don't dictate how anyone should behave in general, I offer my opinion. Only in drastic circumstances would I actually enforce my morality. "Good" and "evil" are arbitrary labels, I don't find them particularly useful.
I don't know what the misunderstanding is. I care about people, not just about myself. If I only cared about myself, I would act very differently.
I'm saying you caring about people is a tangible physical part of who you are, and acting upon it is pragmatism. And that morality (making the distinction between what's good or evil based on you caring about people) is an arbitrary tack on.
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 7:49 pm
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2015 at 7:52 pm by robvalue.)
Yes, pragmatism is a part of everything. I use pragmatism to achieve any specific goal.
My distinction was between the pragmatism of someone who only cares about themselves, yet still acts vaguely "morally" to a limited extent for their own interests (what another person might consider moral), versus someone who cares about others. Of course the person who cares can then approach their goal pragmatically. I think this is the confusion.
Like I said, I don't label things good or evil. I have opinions on what I think should happen and what shouldn't. Ultimately, they are based on emotion.
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 8:08 pm
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2015 at 8:09 pm by henryp.)
(December 30, 2015 at 7:49 pm)robvalue Wrote: Yes, pragmatism is a part of everything. I use pragmatism to achieve any specific goal.
My distinction was between the pragmatism of someone who only cares about themselves, yet still acts vaguely "morally" to a limited extent for their own interests (what another person might consider moral), versus someone who cares about others. Of course the person who cares can then approach their goal pragmatically. I think this is the confusion.
Like I said, I don't label things good or evil. I have opinions on what I think should happen and what shouldn't. Ultimately, they are based on emotion.
Maybe this is where the free will stuff complicates it a bit. Since I believe people are solely a product of biology/environment, I think of them caring about just themselves vs. caring about others as just a description of who they are, rather than a conscious choice they had to make.
I think your belief in that choice (or my disbelief. I don't mind taking the blame as I'm the one with the weird opinion) adds another step in the process which might be why we are a bit out of sync even though we are agreeing with eachother for the most part.
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 8:13 pm
(December 30, 2015 at 8:08 pm)wallym Wrote: Maybe this is where the free will stuff complicates it a bit. Since I believe people are solely a product of biology/environment, I think of them caring about just themselves vs. caring about others as just a description of who they are, rather than a conscious choice they had to make.
It's more about the world you want to live in. If you only care about yourself, welcome to Ayn Rand's world. I for one don't subscribe to that.
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 8:19 pm
(December 30, 2015 at 8:13 pm)abaris Wrote: (December 30, 2015 at 8:08 pm)wallym Wrote: Maybe this is where the free will stuff complicates it a bit. Since I believe people are solely a product of biology/environment, I think of them caring about just themselves vs. caring about others as just a description of who they are, rather than a conscious choice they had to make.
It's more about the world you want to live in. If you only care about yourself, welcome to Ayn Rand's world. I for one don't subscribe to that.
How many worlds do you have access to!? They only gave me this one 
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 8:22 pm
(This post was last modified: December 30, 2015 at 8:23 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(December 30, 2015 at 7:27 pm)wallym Wrote: I eat a cheeseburger, because I'm hungry.
I push Carl out of the way, because he's in my fantasy football league.
I post on atheistforums.org, because I'm bored.
Where is the necessity for good and evil, or right and wrong? Why would you even think to include good and evil or right and wrong?
Do you believe the inconvenience of losing a player from my fantasy football league would make me not pushing Carl out of the way Evil?
I don't know. I don't see any necessity in describing any of those actions as right or wrong. I don't include good or evil in those scenarios.
No, I couldn't say that I believed that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 8:25 pm
(December 30, 2015 at 8:19 pm)wallym Wrote: (December 30, 2015 at 8:13 pm)abaris Wrote: It's more about the world you want to live in. If you only care about yourself, welcome to Ayn Rand's world. I for one don't subscribe to that.
How many worlds do you have access to!? They only gave me this one
You should read up on the effects of solitary confinement.
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RE: Christians take on the more nihilistic atheists
December 30, 2015 at 8:27 pm
(December 30, 2015 at 8:19 pm)wallym Wrote: How many worlds do you have access to!? They only gave me this one
And you make the choice if you only care about yourself or want this to be a better place.
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