Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge

[Mystic]

THANK.  YOU.  This Chad fellow gets me all riled up, and you just explained why better than I usually can.  Instead of actually laying out his specific world view for all of us to see, he resorts to insults and philosophical history lessons in an attempt to make people feel like the reason they don't believe in god is because they simply aren't educated enough. An insulting position to take, indeed.  But he will abandon this thread like he does all the others where someone calls him on his bs.  Thanks for trying though!  [emoji4]

I believe if people reflect with any significance of reflection (not necessarily an issue of education), they will realize God exists as well believe his guidance in it's design as it is.

That said, I believe if people would actually listen with their hearts, they would realize the truth of what God has to say as well some people who can convey the truth.

Whether it's insulting position to take or not, I take it.

When people don't want to believe and stick to whatever words they can come up with to disbelieve, it doesn't matter what signs or proofs or evidence or arguments exist that point to God or the straight path or the way of his guidance.

[downbeatplumb]

THANK.  YOU.  This Chad fellow gets me all riled up, and you just explained why better than I usually can.  Instead of actually laying out his specific world view for all of us to see, he resorts to insults and philosophical history lessons in an attempt to make people feel like the reason they don't believe in god is because they simply aren't educated enough. An insulting position to take, indeed.  But he will abandon this thread like he does all the others where someone calls him on his bs.  Thanks for trying though!  [emoji4]

I believe if people reflect with any significance of reflection (not necessarily an issue of education), they will realize God exists as well believe his guidance in it's design as it is.

That said, I believe if people would actually listen with their hearts, they would realize the truth of what God has to say as well some people who can convey the truth.

Whether it's insulting position to take or not, I take it.

When people don't want to believe and stick to whatever words they can come up with to disbelieve, it doesn't matter what signs or proofs or evidence or arguments exist that point to God or the straight path or the way of his guidance.

I believe you are wrong.

[Mystic]

I believe you are wrong.

And you have the right to voice that opinion as do I.

[LadyForCamus]

Mystic,

I'm sorry, but this reply is a perfect example of what I was talking about in my OP. Telling me to (paraphrasing) "listen with my heart, in order to realize the truth of what God has to say," doesn't really mean anything, let alone convince me of anything.

Also, please remember, there is a difference between not believing in something and not WANTING to believe in something. This is a common misconception of atheists by theists. As far as proofs, evidence, and arguments for God, I haven't heard one yet that was even remotely convincing...

[LadyForCamus]

THANK.  YOU.  This Chad fellow gets me all riled up, and you just explained why better than I usually can.  Instead of actually laying out his specific world view for all of us to see, he resorts to insults and philosophical history lessons in an attempt to make people feel like the reason they don't believe in god is because they simply aren't educated enough. An insulting position to take, indeed.  But he will abandon this thread like he does all the others where someone calls him on his bs.  Thanks for trying though!  [emoji4]

I believe if people reflect with any significance of reflection (not necessarily an issue of education), they will realize God exists as well believe his guidance in it's design as it is.

That said, I believe if people would actually listen with their hearts, they would realize the truth of what God has to say as well some people who can convey the truth.

Whether it's insulting position to take or not, I take it.

When people don't want to believe and stick to whatever words they can come up with to disbelieve, it doesn't matter what signs or proofs or evidence or arguments exist that point to God or the straight path or the way of his guidance.

Sorry, I meant to quote this so you would know there was a reply.

[Mystic]

Mystic,

I'm sorry, but this reply is a perfect example of what I was talking about in my OP.  Telling me to (paraphrasing) "listen with my heart, in order to realize the truth of what God has to say," doesn't really mean anything, let alone convince me of anything.  

Also, please remember, there is a difference between not believing in something and not WANTING to believe in something.  This is a common misconception of atheists by theists.  As far as proofs, evidence, and arguments for God, I haven't heard one yet that was even remotely convincing...

I know it won't convince you. It wasn't meant to convince you. It was clarifying my stance on this issue.

I hear the same thing from Sunnis, there is no convincing proof of the authority of the family of Mohammad in Quran or mutuwatir (numerously transmitted of the same hadith) hadiths, while I see proofs in both clearly. 

My personal experience is that often we convince ourselves the proof is not convincing even when it should.

That said, it's not just Atheists, I find this true of humans generally. And it's not their nature in my view, it's something dark and sinister convincing them to be like this, while it's against their benefit.

[robvalue]

MK: When you have to rely on "dark forces" and "demons" to explain why things aren't the way you think they should be, then maybe that's a sign your position is not as strong as you think. I mean, I could just say the same of you. I can say Islam is just the work of "dark forces" because it's obviously wrong. It's a meaningless cop-out. Just assuming you are 100% right, yet having to give extra supernatural explanations to make reality fit, is not consistent.

In my case, I don't give a flying monkeys. If I found out there was a god, great. Makes no difference. So I'm not "denying" it, because it's of no importance. Of course there would be scientific questions I'd like to put to him if he was available for comment, and I'd like to study him.

You could get angry over scepticism I suppose. But you're right, getting mad over atheism (or even plain theism) doesn't make sense.


I'm not too sure what you were referring to in my post, but it seemed like a lovely compliment!

Rob, your posts have a knack for hitting the sweet spot between great intelligence and plain old common sense! [emoji106]

I read this out to my wife, as I was so proud, and she fell about laughing. I knew she would

I do quite well on certain specialist subjects, but in real life I'm something of a bumbling monkey.

[Mystic]

MK: When you have to rely on "dark forces" and "demons" to explain why things aren't the way you think they should be, then maybe that's a sign your position is not as strong as you think. I mean, I could just say the same of you. I can say Islam is just the work of "dark forces" because it's obviously wrong. It's a meaningless cop-out. Just assuming you are 100% right, yet having to give extra supernatural explanations to make reality fit, is not consistent.

In my case, I don't give a flying monkeys. If I found out there was a god, great. Makes no difference. So I'm not "denying" it, because it's of no importance. Of course there would be scientific questions I'd like to put to him if he was available for comment, and I'd like to study him.

If it is not true, at least, it gives a different perspective, at most it may influence a person to go against bad motives, bad thoughts, bad path because of the chance that there is an enemy misguiding us, trying to corrupt us or keep us away from the path.

That said if it is true, then either taking it as a possibility can be helpful, or perhaps we can even begin to realize the effect or reality of this force. Realize there is a struggle a battle, and it's not all just our thoughts, but there is negative thoughts that we aren't the source of and that there is some dark unclean touch sometimes that afflicts us or is growing in time, while we were once pure of it or it existed it us insignificantly.

Personally, I take this approach, because I believe God didn't just take this approach for no reason. From my perspective, obviously God knew people didn't think Satan and his forces were tying to keep people from following Mohammad or otherwise they would believe, but it gave a perspective, to perhaps see their denial of miracles as magic etc, and their opposition to the oneness of God is not something that is rational and that they sincerely have come to believe in.

He also didn't write the reminder of these forces and end the Quran with that, if it was useless to remind humans.

Personally, on my approach to the Quran, when I was a Deist, I became afraid that I perhaps was missing something in perspective due to dark forces. Personally, I believe that happened to be the case.

Did it help me as a Deist? Yes. Was it because I believe in it or even saw it as highly plausible. No. It was the very chance that motivated me, perhaps I am disbelieving or not perceiving due to that.

So I think there is a wisdom to it's reminder, even to people who don't believe in it.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

THANK.  YOU.  This Chad fellow gets me all riled up, and you just explained why better than I usually can.  Instead of actually laying out his specific world view for all of us to see, he resorts to insults and philosophical history lessons in an attempt to make people feel like the reason they don't believe in god is because they simply aren't educated enough. An insulting position to take, indeed.  But he will abandon this thread like he does all the others where someone calls him on his bs.  Thanks for trying though!  [emoji4]

I believe if people reflect with any significance of reflection (not necessarily an issue of education), they will realize God exists as well believe his guidance in it's design as it is.

We were dealing with insults, suggesting we are of inadequate "knowledge" and "education", and now you are telling us that proof of your assertions may not require that? Doesn't the religious front ever get tired from moving those goal posts around?

That said, I believe if people would actually listen with their hearts, they would realize the truth of what God has to say as well some people who can convey the truth.

How can it really be possible to hear with an organ which is so full of bload? How would you hear anything over the thunderous noise it makes from all that pumping?

I believe what you are essentially saying is that if I have a heart (that which the poets have referred to, which is now known as a specific region of the brain), then I will agree with your position. If I won't, then I'm heartless!

Yeah, Baby, I'm a cold-hearted man!

Whether it's insulting position to take or not, I take it.

It is, very much.

When people don't want to believe and stick to whatever words they can come up with to disbelieve, it doesn't matter what signs or proofs or evidence or arguments exist that point to God or the straight path or the way of his guidance.

You need to stop insulting people with that canard - it simply isn't true that we don't want to believe, and even if we didn't wish to our reasons for not believing have nothing to do with that! You cannot make something true just by making up your mind that it is and asserting it is so, and we disagree with your assertions because we see that you can do no more than that when you try and convince us.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

[quote pid='1162441' dateline='1452027430']
Hanky,

THANK.  YOU.  This Chad fellow gets me all riled up, and you just explained why better than I usually can.  Instead of actually laying out his specific world view for all of us to see, he resorts to insults and philosophical history lessons in an attempt to make people feel like the reason they don't believe in god is because they simply aren't educated enough. An insulting position to take, indeed.  But he will abandon this thread like he does all the others where someone calls him on his bs.  Thanks for trying though!  [emoji4]

[/quote]


I felt your pain as I was reading your OP. It's still a major pet peeve of mine how theists can't make any sort of a case without insults piled on insult, and still they keep on doing just that. When they leave their well-defended and tax-free <strike>churches</strike> castles for their conquest missions here, they know they have no weapons of substance, so they fight with insults instead (just like the taunting French, in the movie "Monty Python's Holy Grail"). It used to vex me a lot, but now the vexation has turned more to wonderous amazement that people still use the same BS, thinking it will get them anywhere. It's even more amazing (and rather horrifying) when with some people it does.

a-Hidey-Ho!