Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge

[Thumpalumpacus]

First of all, I'm not going to show off all my "good" deeds, and what I believe I am doing for the world as a response to this.

... he typed, online.

[Mystic]

If goodness is attached to godly belief, why have you believers built such a shitty world?

Because they associate (shirk) others with that belief.

[The Grand Nudger]

IOW, the good believers aren't at fault, good believers like him.  Fine...but......why not...?  Why haven't the good believers managed to build that better world...assuming that they could.  Remind me again...what's standing in the way.............

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62Qfbrc1jdo

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[Mystic]

IOW, the good believers aren't at fault, good believers like him.  Why not...?  Whhy haven;t the good believers managed to build that better world...assuming that they could.  Remind me again...what's standing in the way.............

First of all, I'm not claiming to be a true believer or a good believer at that. But I believe if people didn't associate with worship of God and obeyed him with sincerity, not breaking his covenant....then with God have sent perpetual stream of guides in different places, this world would be a different place. History is a tragedy, but I believe one day the population will shift against insincerity to God to that of sincerity. Then with God's Guide and his guidance, everything will be set in order. There will be enough supporters that will support the truth and realize the need of God's hand in bringing justice. 

If the Muslim nation didn't break the covenant and accepted the authority of the family of Mohammad, everything would of been different. But a minority, an oppressed minority, can only do so much.

[LadyForCamus]

And again I will say:  you just asserting that goodness can't exist independent of a God is nonsensical, and not in any way a coherent argument for your beliefs.

Why do you suppose it convinces Theists but not Atheists? Why do theists see goodness that is must be linked to God but not Atheists?

Did you even bother read the article I posted above? Sure, it's just one article, about one faction of human nature, and by no means unquestionable proof of any wide scale hypothesis, but it IS an example of how science slowly chips away at mysticism; how the scientific method reveals seemingly supernatural, God-like distinctions of the human species as actually quite natural.

[The Grand Nudger]

First of all, I'm not claiming to be a true believer or a good believer at that. But I believe if people didn't associate with worship of God and obeyed him with sincerity, not breaking his covenant....then with God sending perpetual stream of guides in different places, this world would be a different place.

You don;t like my language..but I assure you we are referring to precisely the same thing, the same hypothetical situation.

History is a tragedy,

Yes, why, explain your groups failure in that regard.

but I believe one day the population will shift against insincerity to God to that of sincerity. Then with God's Guide and his guidance, everything will be set in order. There will be enough supporters that will support the truth and realize the need of God's hand in bringing justice. 

Your mouth is writing checks your ass can't cash.   I'm uninterested in your promises of a utopian future, I want to see you employ some reason.   

If the Muslim nation didn't break the covenant and accept the authority of the family of Mohammad, everything would of been different. But a minority, an oppressed minority, can only do so much.

Yeah, if only the muslim people had accepted the proper succession of kings, as you have....then the -world- would have been different.....this is a fucking joke.

[Mystic]

Yes, why, explain your groups failure in that regard.

Those of who saw the truth who had courage were outnumbered by those who were cowards among them.

[LadyForCamus]

-and again, Mystic, whether or not you assume a creator, for any purpose...and whether or not there is a creator - of any kind..is irrelevant as to why you have failed to convince.  But lets talk about that endlessly, at least we won't have to discuss those criticisms of our "argument" that we do not wish to acknowledge.

That was her objection though, to her it is relevant, she is saying I'm taking for granted God exists for the argument to work. So I'm trying to get her past that. So that we can discuss other parts of the argument.

No mystic,

What I cannot get past is this absurd notion that morality cannot exist with out a god. The fact that your whole "argument," which is set up to "prove" this idea, falls completely out of the realm of common sense only compounds the issue.

[Mystic]

Yeah, if only the muslim people had accepted the proper succession of kings, as you have....then the -world- would have been different.....this is a fucking joke.

It would have. Accepting God's chosen ones, they would of lead the Muslims and eventually the human race into justice, peace and prosperity. 

Without God's hand, without his choice of leaders, however, it would of been set up for disaster. God's favor of Ali and his chosen offspring through Fatima, was huge favor and by which God completed the religion.

The wage of the message was to attach oneself to them , and everything would be set in order.

[The Grand Nudger]

Standard court intrigue.....and yet this is an excuse, not an explanation.  "We were defeated" - yes, clearly.....but why, how...what about allah..and how does this explain your -continued- failure? My ancestors, both biologically and culturally have been defeated many times...and yet they somehow managed to bounce back. We didn't even have gods guidance on our side with which to do so.

I'm afraid that I don't need your cult to lead me to justice...and further....I doubt that they are capable.

You are describing the divine right of kings, Mystic. You realize that the majority of the people with whom you are discussing this issue have moved well beyond the divine right of kings, correct?