what would make you change your beliefs?

[AtheistPhil]

But there is no evidence that when we are "unconscious" we are still self-aware. We have no memories of our supposed self-awareness when we were "unconscious".


There is one thing you can't deny: we are unaware of our self-awareness when we are "unconscious"

[Godhead]

AtheistPhil -

You mean that when we're unconscious (casual usage of the word, ie a knock on the head), we cease being aware that we're aware of ourselves? I don't know what you mean, it's really hot where I am and I can't grasp what you're getting at. Can you try another way?

[AtheistPhil]

Do you remember/feel/have awareness/know that you were self-aware when you were "unconscious" (you hit your head) ?

Otherwise how do you know that self-awareness persists when you are "unconscious" ?

[Godhead]

AtheistPhil -

If you are knocked out for example, and you come back and return to consciousness, you remember who you are, which means that you can't have "disappeared". When you go to sleep and then wake up, you don't start again from scratch as if you were being born again, you continue as you were. So your consciousness never ceased. It was consciousness (awareness) before you went "un"conscious, and it is still consciousness, indeed the very same consciousness when you came back. If you liken the body to a computer, and your consciousness to software, then becoming unconscious refers to the computer / body 's temporary lack of software / consciousness. When it returns, it's just as it was before. That's why nothing in the body and nothing in the brain can be the source of consciousness. Otherwise, the absence of consciousness would be like the absence of any other physical aspect of the body (ie an arm). It would never come back. So it makes far more sense to assume that consciousness is independent of the physical body, and that the brain "houses" our consciousness.

[AtheistPhil]

Either your consciousness never disappeared or the physical universe where your brain (which contains your memory) resides never disappeared.

Otherwise, the absence of consciousness would be like the absence of any other physical aspect of the body (ie an arm). It would never come back

I need clarification here.

[Knight]

AtheistPhil -

If you are knocked out for example, and you come back and return to consciousness, you remember who you are, which means that you can't have "disappeared". When you go to sleep and then wake up, you don't start again from scratch as if you were being born again, you continue as you were. So your consciousness never ceased. It was consciousness (awareness) before you went "un"conscious, and it is still consciousness, indeed the very same consciousness when you came back. If you liken the body to a computer, and your consciousness to software, then becoming unconscious refers to the computer / body 's temporary lack of software / consciousness. When it returns, it's just as it was before. That's why nothing in the body and nothing in the brain can be the source of consciousness. Otherwise, the absence of consciousness would be like the absence of any other physical aspect of the body (ie an arm). It would never come back. So it makes far more sense to assume that consciousness is independent of the physical body, and that the brain "houses" our consciousness.

When you turn off your computer, is it still on? No, and yet when you turn it back on, all of the data you had on this computer before you shut if off is still available. Why? The data is stored. The brain also stores data using neurons. There are regions of our brain, you can think of them as similar to the RAM and the hard drive...our short term memory is like RAM (random...we can access this memory temporarily, but generally it doesn't last for a long period of time). Things in our short term memory may be moved to the long term, similar to saving a document to the hard drive. Our brain has our long term memories stored, meaning when we reboot from our sleep, we still have access to this data. That doesn't mean we never turned off, but that our brain successfully stored the data.

[Godhead]

AtheistPhil -

What I mean is that if consciousness is physical, then losing consciousness would be like losing a limb. When you lose a limb, it's gone. But consciousness returns, just as it was, after being "lost".



Knight -

What turned the computer back on? Computers have users, don't they? I say the user is consciousness. Consciousness is the software, the real us, the user. It uses the body. The brain hosts the software (us).

[AtheistPhil]

AtheistPhil -

What I mean is that if consciousness is physical, then losing consciousness would be like losing a limb. When you lose a limb, it's gone. But consciousness returns, just as it was, after being "lost".

consciousness is not a sum of physical objects, it's an event relying on physical things, one of the potential materialist explanation of the conscience is that it's a flow of electrochemical impulses between neurones
In that case conscience can disappear and reappear.

[Knight]

Knight -

What turned the computer back on? Computers have users, don't they? I say the user is consciousness. Consciousness is the software, the real us, the user. It uses the body. The brain hosts the software (us).

That's actually a good point. I'd say that our brains are definitely more advanced than computers. We have a set sleep cycle. It is as if our brains are self-programmed to shut down and reboot after specific periods of time, probably developed for evolutionary reasons. When we are babies and as we grow, we adapt to the sleep habits of those around us. Generally, we wake around sunrise and sleep around sunset. This would allow us, as hunters and gathers, to collect food and better manipulate our environment (building, etc.). Our brains, for some reason, need to recharge every day, and at night seems to be the most convenient time for this to happen. Over time, we naturally develop a semi-automatic sleep cycle. I only say "semi" because yes, while we are conscious, we can screw up our sleep cycle by choosing to stay up late or by going to bed at an unusual hour. Our body responds negatively when we do this, however, which suggests that our brains are functioning on a set schedule. If we try to consciously change this set schedule, it is as if we have illegally shut off our computer, and now we have to run an annoying system scan to make sure no important data was lost.

Plus, have you heard of the major issues with airplane pilots falling asleep while flying due to a lack of sleep? This isn't a conscious decision, this is the brain responding "Hey man, you are way behind schedule, it's time for sleep mode NOW." Minus the dialogue, of course.

[Godhead]

AtheistPhil -

I agree that consciousness isn't a physical thing (although I know what I said, I was just being very general), or a set of physical things. I also agree that consciousness relies on physical things, but in the sense that software relies on whatever hosts it. And I agree that consciousness can disappear from the body and return to it. So, we're talking about something that is not physical, relies on something physical to function with the body, and can leave, and return. Doesn't that sound like an independent thing which uses the body? Doesn't that mean that we are not our bodies, rather, we use our bodies to function within the material world?



Knight -

I agree that our brains are vastly more complex than any computer. I also agree with the evolution of the physical body. Do you agree with me that consciousness is separate from the physical body? Come on, you owe me.