Antitheism

[Mister Agenda]

We both agree on alot of things here, both antitheists right?  Nevertheless, we don't agree on the inseparability of god and religion.  I'm -certain- you can have either without the other.

How exactly do you have god without religion, if theism is a form of religion, and theism means belief in God?

Religion without God? - That, you certainly can have.

Theism is not a form of religion. It is an opinion on a single topic. It is not a set of beliefs, it is not a dogma, and it is not a religion or a form of religion. A religion can have theism or atheism (or we're-not-going-to-address-that-question-ism) as features of the religion, but neither is or can be a form of religion in themselves.

As an example of theism without religion, I present a type of theist that I refer to as a Somethingist. You know who I'm talking about: if you ask them if they believe in God, they'll say they believe in Something. There's a Dutch term for it: Ietsism: an unspecified belief in an undetermined transcendent force. These people believe there must be something beyond the material world that they can't define and that can't be known. Scratch the surface of people who say they're 'spiritual but not religious' and you'll often find a vaguely theistic belief like this. It's not deism, because they're not saying the Something they're talking about doesn't take a hand in events...but they usually won't say it doesn't, either.  

God without religion? That, you can certainly have.

[Mister Agenda]

You keep reasserting that but I'm not closer to understanding what you mean, or why you think so..than I was the first time.

Can you have the notion of god without belief in god?

Can you have belief in god without theism?

Can you have theism without religion?

1. Yes.
2. No. With the caveat that I'm thinking of deism as falling within the category of theism.
3. Yes.

[Mister Agenda]

No it isn't, as you've been shown in this thread time and time again..by having people link you the definitions.

If -you- define theism as a religion personally (and that's fine) then ofc there can be no theism without religion, it would be tautology.

Religion - the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

Theism -belief in the existence of a god or gods, especially belief in one god as creator of the universe, intervening in it and sustaining a personal relation to his creatures.

How is the second definition not included in the first?

It is not as a religion that theism is defined as, but as a form of religion.

Wikipedia summarizes the anthropological view of religion, which has the virtue of not defining any of the world religions into not being religions anymore:

Religion is a cultural system of behaviors and practices, world views, ethics, and social organisation that relate humanity to an order of existence.

[Mister Agenda]

Deism is most definitely not new...not even relatively...and certainly not in historical terms, lol.  Perhaps you're only familiar with the deism of the founding fathers of the US or some shit..you think they were originators?

I find it hard to believe that deism preceded theism. But if that's true, then I'm wrong.

Though 'classic deism' is a product of the Renaissance, the origins of both deism and theism are lost in prehistory. The ancient Greeks certainly had a notion of it.

There's no way to know whether 'something must have made all this' preceded 'and we should propitiate it so it doesn't smite us'. My own thinking is that mere animism (which can be boiled down to belief in a spiritual world that permeates everything without any beings that fit the definition of god) came first.

As an aside, some cultures have gods but no Creator. Norse mythology lacks a creator God, for instance: everything started with the interaction of fire, light, and heat with darkness, cold, and ice.

[Mister Agenda]

But I am not an anti-theist.  I do not object to other people believing in a deity.

That's not what it means.

It kind of depends on if it's hyphenated, doesn't it?

[Mister Agenda]

Ok, I don't care anymore. Call yourselves whatever you like.

Thanks for your permission.

[Mister Agenda]

(You're blocked, Mr Agenda. Just thought you should know in case you keep replying to me.)

I would thank you for letting me know if I thought you were going to see this post.

Since I respond to posts, not people, I doubt EP blocking me will have any effect on my decision to reply.

[Mister Agenda]

Removing dissenting views from your perception does not make you right, just petulant.

Seriously? Mister Agenda, one of the most polite atheists around? Dude needs meds.

Thanks. I try, but sometimes I fall short due to my temper or passion or a variety of other, less flattering reasons. I may have said something that pushed EP's buttons before he pushed the block button. If that's the case, and I knew what it was, I might apologize if it's something I shouldn't have said. I've done it before. I did it today, in RL. I'm way too aware of my fallibility to not own up to my mistakes.

And I've been known to abuse sarcasm like it owed me money.

[Edwardo Piet]

Nope.

I'm mainly against the 3 Abrahamic religions with are theistic. But not because of the theism.

I'll entertain you for now.

Because of what then?

Because of the harmful shit in the scriptures that some people believe.

There are gods that could be invented that weren't complete assholes, so it's not because of belief in gods per se, it's because of what kind of gods they are defined to be.

[Simon Moon]

Atheist = "I don't believe in God."

Anti Theist  = "I don't believe in God and I hate the thought of anyone else believing it."

....Is this accurate?

...Is it?

Sorry if someone already answered lol. I know no one was for a while, and now I don't want to read through all these pages to see if anyone ever did.

Not sure if anyone else answered, but here's my take.

Atheism is the disbelief in gods (not just the one out of 1000's that you happen to believe exists).

Anti-theism, as I use it, is  being against organized religion. I don't hate the fact that you believe in a god. I hate the fact that along with your belief in a god, comes all the horrible baggage of the Catholic Church.

I have nothing against someone having private belief in a god or gods. My anti-theism is purely related to the real world, negative outcomes that organized religions are responsible for.

The Catholic Church's opposition to same sex marriage and condom use, for example.