Gay, Catholic and Doing Fine

[Mister Agenda]

athrock:

"Carnal desires include far more than sexual matters, LC.

To be "carnal" means to live according to the desires of the flesh. This could mean anything from a desire for more chocolate, a bigger house, a promotion at work. These things are not bad - nor is sex, btw - but our DESIRES for them can be the things that DRIVE us each day. As such, these desires are disordered."

I've never noted the slightest indication that Catholics are free of these desires, or particularly disposed to not acting on them.

Lent begins next week. If you see some grumpy Catholics on Friday, you'll know it's because they are resisting the urge to scarf down a cheeseburger. 

But seriously, it's not the Christians are without desires for these things; it's that we resist them as best we can, failing often.

And if your Catholic friends are NOT trying to resist their flesh, then that says more about them, doesn't it? 

No one said becoming a saint was easy.

It's not that my Catholic friends resist poorly, it's that on average, my atheist friends do just as good a job of it, barring some rituals that there's no point in atheists imitating. I don't commit adultery because it's a 'dick move', and I'm not that much of a dick. I balance life and work because money isn't everything. I don't care what the Joneses have that I don't because that's just not my personality, having experienced grinding poverty I'm rather happy with what I have. Perhaps it's ironic that so many materialists aren't materialistic.

[Mister Agenda]

You know that the atheists who call themselves 'Brights' are a tiny minority of atheists, right? It never really caught on. Because it sounds like we're saying we're smarter than other people. Even people who refer to themselves by that term don't claim to be 'evolutionarily superior'. Are we Bond villains in your head?

And if you consider yourself a Bright, the term they use for people who aren't Brights is 'Supers'. A contraction of supernaturalists. It must mean they think believers are dumb, huh?

Yes, I realize that the term was coined and, thankfully, discarded. Apparently, it wasn't a very bright idea. 

That's why I enjoy using it to poke fun at atheists.

In other words, you're just being an asshole.

[Mister Agenda]

No, long ago men who were primitive morons wrote down what they believed to be God's rules, but were just their own made up bullshit.   They made god in their own image.  And they used the name of God to control people, and stone them whenever they didn't act the way they wanted them to.

People today believe it because they are sheep in need of a Sheppard.  The Wolf Showed up to fill the role, and so they went along with it.

No, today people claim that it is all just "made up bullshit" so that they can do whatever they want.

Too bad your supposed God doesn't give you any insight that would be helpful in discerning what would be persuasive to atheists. The number of atheists I've met, online or off, who reject the Bible (or Koran, or Bhagavad Ghita, or whatever) so that they 'can do whatever they want' is zero.

Being a believer is no barrier whatsoever to doing whatever you want. You can always ask for forgiveness later. You can stay (for instance) a Catholic, do whatever you want, and have the best of both worlds, baby!

We claim it is made up bullshit because it is completely indistinguishable from other made up bullshit.

[Brian37]

I think what's ignored by Catholics is pretty simple:  They've taught this poor, unfortunate young man that there's something wrong with him.  Of course they see nothing wrong with this, because they see that something is wrong with them.

I remember when I first started experimenting sexually.  My first thoughts were of girls, not boys.  I was absolutely terrified.  I was sure there was something wrong with me.  Because that is what the bible taught.  I spent many guilt-wracked nights thinking that there was something wrong with me, that I was somehow broken.  And this is what the religion teaches people to feel.  The Catholic Church breaks people, and then tries putting them back together, deliberately leaving out pieces that don't conform to their way of life.

A friend of mine was put in reparation therapy 'out of love' by her parents.  For her, it was one of the worst experiences of her life.  She still won't quite talk about it.  All she'll say is the experience was, for her, basically hell.  And that her parents put her through it absolutely broke her. 

People love to say "He chose to be celibate."  If that makes you sleep better, then that's fine I guess.  But he didn't really choose celibacy.  Celibacy was chosen for him.  He was told that wanting to have a relationship with someone that he's attracted to is wrong.  And some Catholics and Christians and Muslims and Jews and whatever else have you apparently lack the empathy to understand how harmful this is.  They justify it with their word salads and their thousand year old books.  He says he's happy being celibate, so that's enough for them.  "It's a struggle, but Catholicism is supposed to be a struggle."  I wonder how many of those same people would choose to be celibate for life for their religion.  And not just SAY it, but actually go through with it.  Talk is easy.  Talk is cheap.  How many would forego sex for their entire lives because their religion told them to? 

It's a little sick that we live in a world where people can comfort themselves with the fact that they can justify denying gay people the right to get married because their god said so, and because one single gay person claims to be happy. They don't care how difficult it is for them;  in fact they justify it.  They say that it's good that it's difficult, because good things are hard.

The church breaks people.  And some of those who are part of that church, our Dear Topic Creator among them, take glee in telling gay people that they are only atheists so they can continue living their lifestyle.  They bash those who don't have the same values of them.  Therein lies the problem with religion.  They expect people to hold their values, and when they don't, they ostracize them, criticize them, and shun them.  And many of them do so gleefully.  They're like the parents of my friend (who are now reformed, and no longer Christian) were.  The well-being of the people they claim to love mattered less than what they wanted them to be.

This Love that is described, isn't love at all.  It's what's truly the perverted version of love. It's easy to say that you love someone when you use this definition of love, because that definition is empty and hallow.  There's nothing to it.  You can love your fellow man, just by saying you do.  That's because despite what they say -- that good things are hard -- they don't like doing things the hard way.  They can't find a way to love someone for who they are, regardless of what they do.  Instead they have to judge them, and often misjudge them.  What a terrible version of love that is.  Then again, I wonder if they can be blamed.  They were taught to believe these things.  That what the old testament describes of God is Love.  And it's not love any more than what they do is love.  And so long as that's their definition of love, they'll never truly have it.

To add to what you just said for anyone reading this. I agree with what you said, but let me add:


Hetrosexuals also take risks with sex too, so to chose celibacy for religious reasons, is fucking stupid. If you have a heavy libido male or female, all the religious reasons will do at best, is act as a sugar pill, a distraction, but even then it is still a denial of self. The sexual preference isn't what causes someone do risk take, heterosexual teen couples and young adults have hormones too. 

The only reasons not to have sex are STDs and unwanted pregnancies and financial, but that applies to even married couples. And there still when you do have sex, gay or straight, safe ways to have sex by use of condom and that included condom with anal and oral too, not just vaginal.

It is not love to tell someone they are broken because of a belief one might hold. That isn't helping them, that is asking them to deny themselves to placate your own insecurities.

[The Grand Nudger]

So, after 17 pages, and on the basis of this particular persons op ed, is it about time we informed all the other gay people of the world that their experience is null and everythings going just fine in catholicism now? That it's safe to return to the pool, lol?

[comet]

yup.  people should be allow to open things like straight bars and churches.  gays can do the same thing.  why would a faga think it is ok to force his life style on others?

[KevinM1]

So, after 17 pages, and on the basis of this particular persons op ed, is it about time we informed all the other gay people of the world that their experience is null and everythings going just fine in catholicism now?  That it's safe to return to the pool, lol?

Only if they don't actually engage in hot gay sex.  Because god finds that icky, despite making people gay.

[Cato]

"What did you do to your leg?"...

---

"What do you mean?"
"Well, I see you're walking around on crutches and I was just wondering what's wrong with your leg."
"Oh.  There's nothing wrong with my leg."
"Then why the crutches?"
"My church teaches that it's sinful to walk on your left leg."
"What!  Why is that?"
"Well it's okay to have left legs, it's just that it's disordered to use them."
"That doesn't explain it."
"Well it's unnatural."
"No it's not."
"Regardless, my church say it's a sin and I'm okay with that."
"Bloody crazy if you ask me."
"Say, would you sign my petition?"
"What's it say?"
"It says that two legged's can't get married."
"What?!  Now wait a minute."

---

Fucking brilliant.

[Catholic_Lady]

No, I think you're reaching for something that isn't there.

What do you think he means by "hard"? Something that doesn't involve suffering?

The context suggests that he wishes people were celibate like him. He also acknowledge this is a hard kind of life to live. So what is it that I'm reaching for that isn't there?

I've already explained this. He says it's hard, but in the end it's rewarding enough to make it worth it to him... and he describes his life as being a "beautiful life",  and wishes others could have a life as beautiful as his.

[The Grand Nudger]

So time to blow the horn of poseiden and tell all the other gays who've had terrible, terrible experiences with the church that everything's fixed......right?  

Back to reality. His life doesn't sound great, it sounds miserable. I'm glad that he's found a way to cope with that....I certainly wouldn't wish it on anyone. You might...but you're a catholic.......so your wishes for the life of another are immediately suspect. That's been the entirety of the problem with your cult in the first place. Always wishing yourselves on others.