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This is a silly and immature back and forth. Shame on me for having entertained it for as long as I did, but I felt compelled to clear my name of your accusations and straws for anyone else reading.
Nonetheless, I should step out at this point. You are free to think what you want.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
(February 7, 2016 at 4:19 pm)The_Empress Wrote: I disagree with C_L on a lot, but I definitely agree with her sentiment that you need to relax, Brian. Why don't you take it out on one of the more vile people on the forum? There are plenty of them. Take it to the "pop morality" thread, maybe. It's much more deserving of your vitriol.
Vitriol would be "don't ever let a theist post here ever"
Vitriol would be " Have them arrested because they make me want to pull my hair out".
CL was the one who claimed it was ok to be gay and Catholic, and I wasn't the only one to point out the error in that logic, but she kept going.
Now tell me how I am wrong, after SHE admitted she could not prove her claims, I am the bad guy?
No need to defend her at all, if she is right, then she should be able to defend herself. If she is going to respond with "I cant prove it", how is someone responding with "then that should tell you something" make my response "vitriol".
Again, her rights are not the issue, but no, if you keep repeating nonsense after even admitting you have no evidence for it, how is anyone wrong for responding to a naked assertion, because I am not the only one objecting to her claims in this thread.
(February 7, 2016 at 4:19 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: This is a silly and immature back and forth. Shame on me for having entertained it for as long as I did, but I felt compelled to clear my name of your accusations and straws for anyone else reading.
Nonetheless, I should step out at this point. You are free to think what you want.
Immature is what you are doing after admitting you could not prove your position.
Yes step out after you made the naked assertion that it is ok to be a gay Catholic and made it a rights and happiness issue when your objectors were NOT making that the issue. The objectors in this thread have only objected to your bad logic, and you even agreed you had no evidence for your position.
Okay that's nice, but just because the RCC has mellowed their tone somewhat doesn't mean the Bible itself has:
Leviticus 18:22: You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
1 Kings 14:24: and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 1:18-27: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
1 Timothy 1:8-11: Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
And let's not even get into the excommunication commandments, the explicit instruction not to associate with people of this nature (see Eph. 5:7) or this:
Eph. 5:1-13: Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.
So to summarise, this is what the Bible says about homosexuals:
They are an abomination (this is repeated several times),
They should be executed,
They are sexual perverts,
They are equated with rapists (Sodomites),
Their desires are unnatural and shameful,
Homosexuality is caused by disobedience to God,
They are sexual perverts,
Do not associate with them,
And expose them.
Now can you see the problem?
I'm still waiting for a Catholic person to respond to this.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
Okay that's nice, but just because the RCC has mellowed their tone somewhat doesn't mean the Bible itself has:
Leviticus 18:22: You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
1 Kings 14:24: and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 1:18-27: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
1 Timothy 1:8-11: Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
And let's not even get into the excommunication commandments, the explicit instruction not to associate with people of this nature (see Eph. 5:7) or this:
Eph. 5:1-13: Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.
So to summarise, this is what the Bible says about homosexuals:
They are an abomination (this is repeated several times),
They should be executed,
They are sexual perverts,
They are equated with rapists (Sodomites),
Their desires are unnatural and shameful,
Homosexuality is caused by disobedience to God,
They are sexual perverts,
Do not associate with them,
And expose them.
Now can you see the problem?
I'm still waiting for a Catholic person to respond to this.
Me too, now the "I don't do that", or "most dont" are not arguments. Logic matters because others DO read that list and then things like this end up happening.
You'll notice I didn't include Sodom and Gomorrah because that's before the Leviticus direction not to engage in homosexual sex. Therefore at that time no such prohibition was in place. At least according to the Biblical narrative that is.
For Religion & Health see:[/b][/size] Williams & Sternthal. (2007). Spirituality, religion and health: Evidence and research directions. Med. J. Aust., 186(10), S47-S50.-LINK
The WIN/Gallup End of Year Survey 2013 found the US was perceived to be the greatest threat to world peace by a huge margin, with 24% of respondents fearful of the US followed by: 8% for Pakistan, and 6% for China. This was followed by 5% each for: Afghanistan, Iran, Israel, North Korea.-LINK
"That's disgusting. There were clean athletes out there that have had their whole careers ruined by people like Lance Armstrong who just bended thoughts to fit their circumstances. He didn't look up cheating because he wanted to stop, he wanted to justify what he was doing and to keep that continuing on." - Nicole Cooke
(February 8, 2016 at 10:08 am)Aractus Wrote: You'll notice I didn't include Sodom and Gomorrah because that's before the Leviticus direction not to engage in homosexual sex. Therefore at that time no such prohibition was in place. At least according to the Biblical narrative that is.
I still think that is besides the point. The point is ALL holy books are used as weapons regardless of "interpretation". The words are still there to "get wrong" no matter what. That also speaks to the alleged efficiency of this "all powerful" god. If you have this fantastic plan, and your goal is to get everyone on the same page, and have peace, this long convoluted book which people fight over as to what it means seems to be needless drama.
Okay that's nice, but just because the RCC has mellowed their tone somewhat doesn't mean the Bible itself has:
Leviticus 18:22: You shall not lie with a male as with a woman; it is an abomination.
Leviticus 20:13: If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death, their blood is upon them.
1 Kings 14:24: and there were also male cult prostitutes in the land. They did according to all the abominations of the nations which the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10: Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God.
Romans 1:18-27: For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and wickedness of men who by their wickedness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. Ever since the creation of the world his invisible nature, namely, his eternal power and deity, has been clearly perceived in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse; for although they knew God they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking and their senseless minds were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man or birds or animals or reptiles.
Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed for ever! Amen.
For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. Their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural, and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their error.
1 Timothy 1:8-11: Now we know that the law is good, if any one uses it lawfully, understanding this, that the law is not laid down for the just but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, immoral persons, sodomites, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 in accordance with the glorious gospel of the blessed God with which I have been entrusted.
And let's not even get into the excommunication commandments, the explicit instruction not to associate with people of this nature (see Eph. 5:7) or this:
Eph. 5:1-13: Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them. For it is a shame even to speak of the things that they do in secret; but when anything is exposed by the light it becomes visible, for anything that becomes visible is light.
So to summarise, this is what the Bible says about homosexuals:
They are an abomination (this is repeated several times),
They should be executed,
They are sexual perverts,
They are equated with rapists (Sodomites),
Their desires are unnatural and shameful,
Homosexuality is caused by disobedience to God,
They are sexual perverts,
Do not associate with them,
And expose them.
Now can you see the problem?
I'm still waiting for a Catholic person to respond to this.
Hi Aractus. Since Catholicism isn't in the business of fundamentalism, where we take everything in the bible completely literally, you'd have to look at the Catechism to see how we interpret certain things.
This is everything the Catechism says about homosexuality:
Quote:Chastity and homosexuality 2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved. 2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is not freely chosen, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition. 2359 Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.
Basically, we think it is immoral to have any sex that is outside of husband and wife, and that includes sex between 2 men/2 women. And we don't believe gay marriage or polygamy are real marriages in the eyes of God, even if they are legal, it is not something we can approve in the Church (marriage in our beliefs is a spiritual thing, not just a legal thing). However, we recognize that people don't freely choose to be gay, and so being gay is not immoral. Only the acts of having sex, are what we believe to be so. And we are also instructed not to treat them badly or to see them as any less human... since some of the bible verses about it come off as very dehumanizing.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
CL, we really don't need your input anymore, you said you wanted to stop, and you also admitted you could not prove your position, so do let another Catholic take a shot at it. You jumped in the ring, you had your claims knocked out, now if you insist on continuing, dispense with the complaining.
Are you willing to admit you are wrong, are you just continuing just to save face?
