Hello everyone. I've finally worked out...

[Edwardo Piet]

Are you Walter White? Please tell me you're Walter White.

Even if you're not, please tell me you are. And if you're not, don't say you're not, just leave me to my delusion that you're Walter White.

[ignoramus]

welcome.

[MTL]

why theists bug me.

Hello everyone, FebruaryOfReason here.

Posting for the first time. I have just been in an argument on another board far far away, with a theist, and finally worked out why they get under my skin so much.

I studied Chemistry at college, spent a long time doing it actually. Everything I knew had to be patiently investigated and checked. It had to be consistent with many other things before it was treated as reliable. If our opinions (hypotheses, call them what you will) were not consistent with observable fact, we often had to go back to square one. The careful standardisation so others could repeat what we did. The rigourous nomenclature that ensured we all knew exactly what we were referring to. We put a lot of effort into checking that what we said was right.

Then someone gets to tell me that everything I think is wrong, just because they've got a book of made-up rubbish from thousands of years ago? Full of translation errors, bits that even they don't believe in? Bits that contradict what was said in the previous sentence, bits that for centuries people believed to be literally true and now everyone is saying are "just a metaphor" because they are so obviously, indefensibly ridiculous and only now can we say it without getting burned to death?

Sod that.

And whenever I try to show them the years of reasoning that were required just to get to the point of basic knowledge about how things work and combine (or why they don't), how they explain in minute detail, how they even anticipate subsequent discoveries, that person just gets to stick their fingers in their ears and go "la la la I'm not listening", and claim that attitude - the ability to carry on thinking exactly the same thing when the facts show that you are wrong- as a virtue?

That is why theists bug me.

Rant over.

Welcome to the Forums!

Many here will sympathize with your experience, myself included.

What bugs me about Religion is that,
not only does it do humanity a huge amount of harm,

....But also that, contrary to what it claims to have as its primary purpose,
Religion does NOT serve God, either!!!

You reminded me that I have even used an illustration that I came up with,
to make the hypocrisy of Religion clear to Theists:

Let's just say for the moment, for argument's sake, that there actually IS a God, out there.

Think of God as a Teacher.

Think of the Universe as his classroom....a wonderful Science class, full of curiosities.

Think of his two students as being named Science, and Religion.

God sets them up on the first day with everything they'll need to learn what He has to teach:
a fine brain,
a conscience,
free will,
...and five senses.

His first lesson is that they endeavor to learn the lessons He has to teach,
by employing Values of:

Faith in their Teacher,
Integrity,
Patience,
Humility,
...and Hard Work.


Now, the student named Religion is eager to distinguish himself;
he seems to think that there is something to be gained by paying lip service to the Teacher;
that maybe the Teacher will reward him for never challenging anything the Teacher says,
and will thus be seen as "putting himself on the Teacher's side".

So, the student named Religion tries to present himself as the more devoted student,
and his strategy is to keep parroting back the Values taught in the first lesson,
for the entire duration of the school year.

Further to this end, the student named Religion seizes every opportunity
to ridicule, shame, and condemn his fellow student, Science;

Religion condemns Science for being presumptuous enough to question the Teacher's lessons,
...as if that is a sin of arrogance, instead of being a value of humility;

and also for trying to work things out for himself,
...as if that is the sin of "lack of Faith" that the Teacher knows the answer...

...etc.


....he tries to claim that any questioning on the part of Science,
is blasphemous and is an insult to the Teacher.

The student named Religion spectacularly misses the point:  to actually learn.

By contrast,

The student named "Science" has no chip on his shoulder about impressing anyone;
he doesn't think for a second that worshiping the Teacher will result in some kind of reward;
rather, Science considers the LEARNING to be its own reward.

The student named Religion is so insecure
that he can't admit for even a second
that he doesn't already have all the answers,

...and since he can't even admit  that this is the case,
he certainly never slows down long enough to LEARN the answers.

Now, the Teacher, named God, doesn't care about being worshiped.

God is there to share his Creation with his students.

He is pleased that the student named Science wants to thoroughly learn the curriculum,
even if that means that the student named Science questions everything
that He, the Teacher, sends his way;

and He is disappointed that the student named Religion has the wrong end of the stick.

Sadly, the student named Religion spends so much time pontificating on those values,
he ends up doing very little actual work,
or actually learning any of the lessons,
so he covers for this by GUESSING that he knows what the end result will be,
because he's so sure that he understands what God is trying to teach,
and what the end result will be.

It never occurs to him that he's missing the point
and missing the lessons, to boot.

Ironically, the student named Religion,
for all of his strategy to distinguish himself simply by expounding upon those Values taught in the beginning,
fails, on a practical level, to actually embody ANY of them:

Religion has NO Faith in the Teacher, because if he did, he wouldn't be so insecure;
he'd be willing to admit that he does NOT actually know the answers,
(but would trust that God, does).

Religion is NOT Patient:  by pretending to have all the answers,
he is effectively trying to "skip to the end of the book".

Religion has NO Humility:  It takes arrogance to assume you understand everything, right from the beginning.

Religion does NO Hard Work:  He left that to the student named "Science".

Religion has NO Integrity:  At the end of the day, Science can back up its work,
whereas Religion has been all bluff and hot air, no evidence, no substance, no data.


...and, despite not believing that he will get any specific reward for embodying those Values,
the student named Science, ironically, embodies ALL of them.





Now, I personally allow for the possibility that a God may exist,
but I personally reject all Religion as being man-made garbage that NEVER had anything to do with God,
if God exists at all.

But the point of my illustration is NOT to suggest that God might actually exist;

Rather, I point out to the Theists who DO believe that God exists,
how their Religion may actually be leading them further astray,
and not only does it do a great deal of damage to humanity here on Earth,

but if there IS actually a God out there, somewhere,

I can think of nothing more insulting to God
than to allow Religion to speak for Him.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Hiyas. Religious folk bug me too, when they evangelize.

[pocaracas]

Welcome aboard!
I married one, so I can't complain too much.

[robvalue]

Heya, welcome aboard

I totally agree. Such people are choosing to value one book over everything else we've ever learned in the last 2000 years. And this isn't just stupid, it's dangerous.

[ignoramus]

Welcome.

I have not had one complaint from my religious wife in 25 years!
Wow, time flies! Is that how long she's been in the deep freezer!

[Expired]

Hello there

[Jello]

Hi!

Being a total history nerd, i can get quite bugged by theists sometimes, such as when they try to state that religion has never caused a war. (If that ever happens, tell them to look up the Thirty Years war. Protestantism versus Catholicism. One of the most destructive wars europe has ever seen.)
Other than that, i just let them get on with their business, because they can believe what they like, so long as they aren't trying to force their beliefs on others, or being general assholes, using their beliefs as a shield.

[FebruaryOfReason]

Are you Walter White? Please tell me you're Walter White.

Even if you're not, please tell me you are. And if you're not, don't say you're not, just leave me to my delusion that you're Walter White.

I am not Walter White.

But of course, if I was Walter White I would deny it, wouldn't I?



Sorry, my oven timer is pinging, just give me a moment ...