The difference between empathy and sympathy and why it's important

[Aegon]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Evwgu369Jw

Wasn't sure where to put this. If it doesn't really fit here then mods please feel free to move it.

As someone who's fought depression, I believe this is a crucial viewing for everybody. Sympathy is utterly useless to the person you're being sympathetic towards. It doesn't help them and in many cases it makes them feel even worse because your response is indicative of your lack of understanding of their situation. If you cannot empathize with somebody you're better off keeping it at a "I'm so sorry." Like Dr. Brown says in the video, one of the worst things you could say is a sentence starting with "At least..."

Thoughts? Agree or disagree?

[bennyboy]

I think we usually think that bad feelings are a result of a broken world view, and that the way to fix the problem is to correct the world view. So when say Robin Williams was suffering depression, people would say-- you're rich, you're popular, you have a great family, what's to be depressed about? Obviously, in his state he was unable to see that positive world view.

On the other hand, I'd worry that I'm enabling someone by validating feelings based on a broken world view. Let's say I know a woman who was raped 20 years ago, and she keeps having problems with her relationships, gets depressed, and says it's because of the baggage caused by that event. I'd be worried that if I empathize with her, and give her the love and attention she needs, that there will some reward in it for her. Next time she needs love and attention, she may be more likely to dig up those old feelings, instead of looking for healthier ways of getting it. Also, to really empathize, I'm going to have to walk in some pretty dark shadows myself.

I mean, everyone gets depressed sometimes. But I've known some professional wallowers, and I don't think reinforcing that (and I've known some with TOTAL support from family and friends) really benefits the person that much.


I'd also like to mention that I suffered depression a lot when I was younger. I was lonely, isolated, bored, tired, and happy people mostly just seemed like condescending pricks when they tried to make me happy. But people trying to help me didn't, really. It was friends who showed me tough love that helped more: "Stop your fucking whining. You're gonna put on some clothes, let me buy you a drink, and we're going to go get shot down by every girl in Vancouver, and it'll be fucking great." I went to a doctor to get a depression diagnosis because I was too depressed and antisocial to get a job and I wanted to go on welfare. He said, "I'm not going to enable you to sit around and feel sorry for yourself. You show me you registered in school, and you apply for a student loan, and I'll give you a two month diagnosis so you can have a little holiday." So off I went to university, and it was INTERESTING, and I had so many other things to think about than what a waste of space I was, and over time, my world view changed.

I'm not sure if you'd call my friend empathetic, or my doctor. But the important thing is they forced me to engage in my life, and not to sit around wallowing. Nothing's a better cure for depression than the flashing lights and booming sounds of a real life, happening.

[Aegon]

I think we usually think that bad feelings are a result of a broken world view, and that the way to fix the problem is to correct the world view.  So when say Robin Williams was suffering depression, people would say-- you're rich, you're popular, you have a great family, what's to be depressed about?  Obviously, in his state he was unable to see that positive world view.

On the other hand, I'd worry that I'm enabling someone by validating feelings based on a broken world view.  Let's say I know a woman who was raped 20 years ago, and she keeps having problems with her relationships, gets depressed, and says it's because of the baggage caused by that event.  I'd be worried that if I empathize with her, and give her the love and attention she needs, that there will some reward in it for her.  Next time she needs love and attention, she may be more likely to dig up those old feelings, instead of looking for healthier ways of getting it.  Also, to really empathize, I'm going to have to walk in some pretty dark shadows myself.

I mean, everyone gets depressed sometimes.  But I've known some professional wallowers, and I don't think reinforcing that (and I've known some with TOTAL support from family and friends) really benefits the person that much.


I'd also like to mention that I suffered depression a lot when I was younger.  I was lonely, isolated, bored, tired, and happy people mostly just seemed like condescending pricks when they tried to make me happy.  But people trying to help me didn't, really.  It was friends who showed me tough love that helped more: "Stop your fucking whining.  You're gonna put on some clothes, let me buy you a drink, and we're going to go get shot down by every girl in Vancouver, and it'll be fucking great."  I went to a doctor to get a depression diagnosis because I was too depressed and antisocial to get a job and I wanted to go on welfare.  He said, "I'm not going to enable you to sit around and feel sorry for yourself.  You show me you registered in school, and you apply for a student loan, and I'll give you a two month diagnosis so you can have a little holiday."  So off I went to university, and it was INTERESTING, and I had so many other things to think about than what a waste of space I was, and over time, my world view changed.

I'm not sure if you'd call my friend empathetic, or my doctor.  But the important thing is they forced me to engage in my life, and not to sit around wallowing.  Nothing's a better cure for depression than the flashing lights and booming sounds of a real life, happening.

I'd definitely agree that "tough love" can be beneficial, but empathizing doesn't necessarily mean reinforcing their behavior. One could certainly combine empathy with tough love. In fact that would probably be the best way to handle the situation. You responded well to those friends, but it's possible that you could have virtually ignored their advice because you have the mindset of "Easy for them to say something like that, they're not dealing with this."

[bennyboy]

I'd definitely agree that "tough love" can be beneficial, but empathizing doesn't necessarily mean reinforcing their behavior. One could certainly combine empathy with tough love. In fact that would probably be the best way to handle the situation. You responded well to those friends, but it's possible that you could have virtually ignored their advice because you have the mindset of "Easy for them to say something like that, they're not dealing with this."

Yeah, that's the essence of the problem, isn't it? The person him/herself needs to come out of their shell and decide they want to engage in life even if it hurts or feels scary. But most depressed people are so clouded by their situation that it's very hard for them to take that step.

[Joods]

I watched the video and honestly, it's pretty much on point. Empathy is the ability to step into someone else's shoes and feel what they are telling you. And it's true. And there is a huge difference between that and sympathy.

As far as tough love goes, it doesn't always work and it's not always for everyone. It depends on the situation. I suffered major depression for years. 8 years in therapy did squat because the therapist wasn't able to connect with me on that empathic level and really understand what I was going through. In the end, when I came to the realization that some of my family members as well as my ex, were narcissists, I told my therapist. I also became involved with online support groups filled with parents who have been dealing with narcissism and their ex's as well. It was eye opening because so many of our ex's seem to go off the same script. People who have never had to deal with a narcissist have no idea and can't really empathize because of how horrible the experience really is.

After telling my therapist this, and informing her of what I had learned and the groups I was in, she did a complete 180 and became very judgmental. She was my therapist for the last five years of my therapy and in all that time, she never showed me any tools or anything that I could do to improve my life. It wasn't until three months after I made my discovery, told her what I was doing and the tools I was utilizing that she became extremely difficult to talk to. She didn't like the fact that I was getting actual help from outside sources and that help was working.

I haven't been to therapy in over a year and while things have been difficult, I haven't had the depression that loomed over me for over 10 years. I feel better because I've been applying things that only people who've dealt with people like my ex, know have worked.

When you have certain situations where tough love doesn't apply, empathy is needed. Sympathy does nothing.

[Neo-Scholastic]

For some of us, no matter how good you are at something or how much you've accomplished it never feels good enough. (The Robin Williams example was appropriate, although I prefer David Foster Wallace). No success can ever fill the void. I've been trying to figure out that void for years. Maybe that's why I say that the secret to happiness is low expectations. Doing creative work can certainly distract you, but you cannot ride that high for very long. I can't. For what it is worth, it seems to me that the worst thing someone prone to depression can do is wonder if they are happy.

[Aegon]

For some of us, no matter how good you are at something or how much you've accomplished it never feels good enough. (The Robin Williams example was appropriate, although I prefer David Foster Wallace). No success can ever fill the void. I've been trying to figure out that void for years. Maybe that's why I say that the secret to happiness is low expectations. Doing creative work can certainly distract you, but you cannot ride that high for very long. I can't. For what it is worth, it seems to me that the worst thing someone prone to depression can do is wonder if they are happy.

Bolded by me.

For sure. The minute I think about my level of happiness I feel my depression creeping back in. The only way to ignore it is just....to be. Enjoy a good breakfast, go out to work, grab a pint with your buddies afterward, watch a TV show you really like, enjoy a good dinner...if I don't try and follow a routine that makes me look forward to things then I become alone with my mind; that isn't a good thing.

Majority of people love free time where they get to do nothing. I don't because I just seem to get depressed with my free time. 

[bennyboy]

I've always found depression (and this is maybe just me) to be more about a lack of momentum than a feeling ABOUT something. So like you said, Aegon, if I have too much free time and "relax," then even the things I should do I put off, until I realize I've been lying in bed two days. That's when I start to struggle-- I feel guilty because I didn't do anything, so I make a big deal out of doing things. But then because I've made a big deal out of whatever, it starts to seem scary, like a struggle with my willpower or something.

My "cure," and again this is just me, is to do ANYTHING. Like, I'll just make it my goal to get out of bed. Once I've made my bed, I'll grab a couple dishes to go to the kitchen. If I'm feeling up to it, I'll wipe down the sink a little. As I start to gradually exert control over my environment, I little by little start to feel empowered, and that big monster called "willpower" starts to shrink to a manageable size.

A lot of people think depression is sadness, and it certainly isn't happiness. However, I think the root of it is more a sense of powerlessness than a sense of sadness, especially the sense that one has to negotiate or struggle with one's own self just to do simple activities. It's like my willpower doesn't realize that it's supposed to be working along with the rest of me, but as soon as I get things working as a single "me," I'm off to the races.