Evidence and causes for doubt

[LadyForCamus]

I think this is a good question, and honestly, I don't know how I could be converted to theism (or deism). If god came down from the sky and opened up the heavens to me... I would think I was going insane/hallucinating/on something. If it were more subtle, then I don't know what would actually convince me. I think it's silly when someone says 'show me ONE fossil in the wrong rock layer' since it would obviously take more than ONE fossil, but I don't know what convincing evidence would actually look like. I'm interested to hear some ideas here.

And this is where the ignostic position helps frame the conversation. There really aren't any reasonable definitions of what god is, what its attributes are or how it functions. Consequently it's nigh on impossible to define what would convince you of the existence of something that's so badly defined as to be indistinguishable from things that don't exist. The best answers, like Bill Nye's, are generic (e.g. 'Evidence') and push the onus back on to the believer to properly define their position.

That's a great point, thank you. I hadn't ever heard of ignosticism before. I think it's really important here. Theists are forced to keep pushing God further outside the bounds of reality (many will literally say "god exists outside of time spans space"), to the point where sometimes I'm not even sure THEY have a clear definition of their own God.

[The Inquisition]

1. Any logically sound argument against God.
2.  If I did not see God.
3. If I did not see my soul.
4. If I did not see the divine link between praise and God.
5. If I was shown I have no good reason to believe in God.

Any of these five, and I would be Atheist.

You're probably using the word "see" in a metaphorical sense. I could believe in your god if he would:

Show up on my doorstep, have an in-depth conversation with me, go to lunch with me and my family, let me post a video of him to youtube explaining why, in an authoritative fashion, without appealing to "higher ways" or "mysterious ways" why suffering exists. He could also explain his stupidity of flooding the whole Earth when so many better options were available to him.

He could take a selfie with his smartphone with me right next to him and it would post on everyone's feed on Facebook. (This shouldn't be a problem with god's smartphone)

He could simply stop being invisible all of the time and act like, you know, AN ACTUAL PERSON THAT EXISTS!

[Mystic]

1. Any logically sound argument against God.
2.  If I did not see God.
3. If I did not see my soul.
4. If I did not see the divine link between praise and God.
5. If I was shown I have no good reason to believe in God.

Any of these five, and I would be Atheist.

Thank you for being the only theist so far to actually consider my questions!  How do you know you are seeing God, or your soul?  How do you differentiate between feelings/hallucinations, and reality?  Where does that confidence come from?

P.s., I do think you have been shown that there is no good reason to believe in God.  But many people continue to believe for a lot of bad reasons.

God is light metaphorically in the sense he illuminates and manifests and gives knowledge to others by us seeing him. He manifests the true nature of existence. God being the eternal being that always existed, is the true definition of existence.

You can know it to not be an illusion because your very vision of the soul is borrowing it's existence and luminosity and vision from the source and that what it is manifesting is existence.

Just like you can see you yourself exist, God manifests the truest form of existence. Not only that, it's manifest if you look and reflect over what you are seeing when seeing both him and creation, is that creation get's defined from with respect to it's reality from the source. Everything is created in truth. Everything is created by reality of God. 

God manifests what is real, what is truly exists. What you imagine of matter or quarks existing on it's own, is nothing but conjecture, and you don't know any of this to be what truly exists on it's own.

God is the manifestation of true existence. He is the life by which all life exists. He is the blessed one in the blessings.

By being light, God manifests through light, in various degrees, in various hues, states that are linked to him.

Seeing his light may start off with nothing but a distant star. If God shines even as a distant star, you must believe that is your Lord.

As trust and confidence grows, so does the light and luminosity. In fact, these things are linked.  And so is the love with power. 

With love of God one can see the true nature of existence and power of vision grows as love and attachment to God grows.

[TubbyTubby]

I was just about to say you may regret asking that...

Sent from my SM-G928F using Tapatalk

[Simon Moon]

1. Any logically sound argument against God.

You are passing the burden of proof. Without there first being a logical argument for the existence of a god, there is no need to come up with a counter logical argument against the existence of a god. All the arguments for the existence of a god are logically flawed.

2.  If I did not see God.
3. If I did not see my soul.
4. If I did not see the divine link between praise and God.

How do you know that these are not just you misinterpreting a natural brain state?

5. If I was shown I have no good reason to believe in God.

Lack of demonstrable and falsifiable evidence.
Lack of valid and sound logical arguments.
 
Are very good reasons to disbelieve in the existence of a god. 

[/quote]

[Angrboda]

God is light metaphorically in the sense he illuminates and manifests and gives knowledge to others by us seeing him. He manifests the true nature of existence. God being the eternal being that always existed, is the true definition of existence.

You can know it to not be an illusion because your very vision of the soul is borrowing it's existence and luminosity and vision from the source and that what it is manifesting is existence.

Just like you can see you yourself exist, God manifests the truest form of existence. Not only that, it's manifest if you look and reflect over what you are seeing when seeing both him and creation, is that creation get's defined from with respect to it's reality from the source. Everything is created in truth. Everything is created by reality of God. 

God manifests what is real, what is truly exists. What you imagine of matter or quarks existing on it's own, is nothing but conjecture, and you don't know any of this to be what truly exists on it's own.

God is the manifestation of true existence. He is the life by which all life exists. He is the blessed one in the blessings.

By being light, God manifests through light, in various degrees, in various hues, states that are linked to him.

Seeing his light may start off with nothing but a distant star. If God shines even as a distant star, you must believe that is your Lord.

As trust and confidence grows, so does the light and luminosity. In fact, these things are linked.  And so is the love with power. 

With love of God one can see the true nature of existence and power of vision grows as love and attachment to God grows.

[pocaracas]

5. If I was shown I have no good reason to believe in God.

Funny you should use the word "believe".
One of my greatest qualms with any god is the actual requirement of belief.
Luckily, the clue to it's wrongness is right there in the title... Belief system.

[Simon Moon]

5. If I was shown I have no good reason to believe in God.

Funny you should use the word "believe".
One of my greatest qualms with any god is the actual requirement of belief.
Luckily, the clue to it's wrongness is right there in the title... Belief system.

Not to be pedantic, but in all fairness, a belief is simply the psychological state in which one accepts a premise or proposition as being true.

There are good reasons to believe something (demonstrable evidence, reasoned argument) and bad reasons (faith, feelings, anecdote, ancient texts).

I have no problems using the word "belief" for the things I accept as being true, because I know I have good reasons for believing them.

But I understand where you are coming from.

[comet]

that's right.

"something" is a far more reasonable stance then "nothing". But that does not give us the right to a psychological dysfunction, emotional needed, and convoluted logic justification of Omni-dude. But that's not even the worst of it. for "normals" to support these people, even promote them, is crazy ... err wait ... we vote them into office too ... forget that.

[Kiekeben]

Thank you for being the only theist so far to actually consider my questions!  How do you know you are seeing God, or your soul?  How do you differentiate between feelings/hallucinations, and reality?  Where does that confidence come from?

P.s., I do think you have been shown that there is no good reason to believe in God.  But many people continue to believe for a lot of bad reasons.

God is light metaphorically in the sense he illuminates and manifests and gives knowledge to others by us seeing him. He manifests the true nature of existence. God being the eternal being that always existed, is the true definition of existence.

Mystic: You answered the original question with, among other things, "If I was shown I have no good reason to believe in God." In order for this to make sense, it must mean you are open to the possibility that there is no God. Otherwise, you should have just been honest and answered with "nothing." 

And yet now you say that God is "the true definition of existence."

But if God means existence, then it's not even possible for him to not exist, is it? 

So which one do you really mean?

[True definition of a mystic: "someone who contradicts themselves all over the place."]