(March 13, 2016 at 4:06 am)bennyboy Wrote: Let me fix this for you:
"Minds have never been shown to exist."
There, that's a little simpler.
Then what is the difference between a conscious and an unconscious person?
Mind is the brain?
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(March 13, 2016 at 4:06 am)bennyboy Wrote: Let me fix this for you: Then what is the difference between a conscious and an unconscious person? (March 14, 2016 at 2:28 pm)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:(March 13, 2016 at 4:06 am)bennyboy Wrote: Let me fix this for you: One moves around more and says stuff. RE: Mind is the brain?
March 14, 2016 at 3:12 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2016 at 3:13 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 14, 2016 at 2:08 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Wait a minute, I'm not arguing against materialism with the thing you quoted.Who's arguing? I said you objected for this reason, and this reason alone. In our many discussions on this subject, that's been my takeaway. Quote:It is whether the unique function, properties or whatever that allow mind are of the brain specifically, or of certain kinds of processing more generally. Too special to be material, and too special to be anything other than unique to gear you possess if it happens to be material. I agree here, sort of...it's far too special.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
RE: Mind is the brain?
March 14, 2016 at 3:16 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2016 at 3:18 pm by Brian37.)
(March 14, 2016 at 9:17 am)bennyboy Wrote:(March 14, 2016 at 8:32 am)Brian37 Wrote: There is no "paradigm". There is no mystery.That's a lot of assertions, but you will have a hard time supporting them without begging the question, I think. But let's find out-- can you please support your many factual statements with logic, evidence, or ideally proof? If there were life after death or something separate called a "spirit" or "soul" one could easily prove that by decapitating their own head sew it back on, and have it come back fully functioning. Now again, it is no different than your computer, try smashing it up into unusable parts and see if it functions the same way as if you didn't do that. No assertions, we are finite. An molecule outside the context of an in tact brain won't function as the in tact brain. An atom outside the in tact brain also will not function as the entire in tact brain. It would be just as stupid to think you could blow up your car to bits, and expect the tire to work like the in tact car. A single cell or dead cell beyond repair will not work like a functioning in tact cell, much less an entire fully functioning brain. Have enough cells die beyond repair, you die. Our brains in our healthy lucid state have a very specific order, brake the parts apart, deny it fuel it is no different than any other living thing or even a broken unusable mechanical object. WE DO NOT survive after our brains are dead and beyond repair. It is why when someone suffers brain damage to the point of being a vegetable you are not the full version. Or when you have a degenerative brain disease like cancer or Alzheimers while you may fade in and out of your lucidity, it always gets progressively worse when diagnosed as terminal, to the point you are not there and until your brain dies to the point of your other organs being affected to the point of permanent death. We DO NOT SURVIVE OUR DEATHS. The thing we call "I" is our brain with fuel and motion. (March 12, 2016 at 10:07 pm)bennyboy Wrote: *Someone called my name?* Can you talk more about how science has shown that evidence is not an accurate reflection of reality? I'm just interested. [emoji846]
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken. (March 14, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Too special to be material, and too special to be anything other than unique to gear you possess if it happens to be material. I agree here, sort of...it's far too special. No, not necessarily too special to be material. The brain has many layers of function, from the most elemental (the passage of photons an electrons among atoms for example), to the chemical cascades in neurons, to nerve bundles, to the coordination of brain parts involving sound and sight, complex processing, accessing of memories, etc. Now, you can say that mind is brain function-- but unless you know exactly what it is about the brain that allows us to experience the "what it's like," there are some serious philosophical questions-- and that's EVEN IF I accept a physical monist position. For example, does an atom have a primitive awareness of "what it's like" to receive a photon? Does a single nerve have an awareness of "what it's like" to be triggered by activity at the dendrites? Or is there a critical mass of complexity where there's any "what it's like" at all-- say, at least an input, a processor, and an output? In the first case, there is literally mind everywhere in the universe, and it is no less intrinsic to material than any other physical property. In the latter, it may be that you need something VERY similar to the human brain to have any awareness at all. So waving at the brain and saying "It's clearly in there somewhere" won't really resolve the question of mind/matter, at least not in a very useful way. It's more an ontology than a conclusion. RE: Mind is the brain?
March 14, 2016 at 11:51 pm
(This post was last modified: March 14, 2016 at 11:53 pm by bennyboy.)
(March 14, 2016 at 9:54 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Can you talk more about how science has shown that evidence is not an accurate reflection of reality? I'm just interested. [emoji846]Let's say you look at a table. To what degree does your observation demonstrate that there is actually a flat surface there? The reality of it is that the table is 99.9999999% empty space, and that 0.000000001% consists of a nature that is almost impossible for the humand mind to comprehend. In one sense, there is no flatness-- it's an idea that we derive. So there are at least two levels we can look at reality: that of the Universe as a cloud of varying densities of wave functions, and another as that of solid objects and their physical properties-- like bouncing billiard balls. Now, I'm sure this view will be controversial, and I can feel Rhythm breathing down my neck already. But I'd say that science has shown that, whatever we think the universe is, it isn't that. Or, at least, that there's a paradoxical dualism: if you view a cell through a microscope (i.e. collect evidence) what are you really seeing? Is the answer a cloud of wave functions, or a "thing"? Is a photon a wave or a particle?
I read Mr. Lycan’s paper some time ago. First he says that the arguments against dualism have been grossly overrated (which they have). Secondly he reflects on his own materialist conviction and concludes that it doesn’t fare much better. He seems to believe that the primary justification for materialism is parsimony, which isn’t really an argument at all; but rather, an epistemological preference to interpret data in a certain way. What I find interesting is that Lycan and the people he references keep contrasting dualism with materialism. The more appropriate contrasts would be between dualism/monism and materialism/idealism.
I don’t exactly understand the relevance of objections that say something like: mind/brain identity is true because minds cannot exist in a disembodied state. In point of fact the two concepts are unrelated. The question is not whether the mind and body have independent existence (I don’t believe they do); but rather, whether they can be recognized as distinct one from the other (and I believe they can). What we are basically looking at is the Problem of Universals. Solve that and you solve the mind-body problem. (March 14, 2016 at 9:22 am)little_monkey Wrote:(March 13, 2016 at 9:08 pm)bennyboy Wrote: Nice to see you again! I remember you very well, and will not say what name you went by there, but I know exactly who you are (at least in the context of that other forum). Benny, I'm waiting for your response... RE: Mind is the brain?
March 15, 2016 at 11:47 am
(This post was last modified: March 15, 2016 at 11:50 am by The Grand Nudger.)
(March 14, 2016 at 11:37 pm)bennyboy Wrote:(March 14, 2016 at 3:12 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Too special to be material, and too special to be anything other than unique to gear you possess if it happens to be material. I agree here, sort of...it's far too special. There are those layers of rationalization I mentioned, surrounding your need for mind to be special. Single atoms are not expected to have an awareness in a materialist explanation, and they do not present any evidence of awareness. Things -may- need to be similar to our own brain to have an awareness, in a materialist explanation...that -is- expected. That doesn't mean they need to be human, brains, or even biological. Speaking of similarities....since -no- material monist explanation says "it's in there, somewhere"....this one is just like your "can't account for or discuss" nonsense, and you know better.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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