Why the whole Adam and Eve Fall story makes no sense

[Nihilist Virus]

Can you accept that it is possible to know right from wrong, without understanding the concept of Good and evil?

No, at least not from you, because that contradicts he fuck out of your "pop morality" thread.

Do you have children?

No, and I hope to high hell that you don't either.

have you spent any time with any toddlers?

Yes, but not as much time as priests usually do.

It goes without saying that a toddler does not understand the concept of sin, evil. As sin and evil are based on God's laws and where one's heart is in relation to a given sin.

Well no shit, how the hell are they supposed to know it's evil to cook a goat in its mother's milk?

Yet they still understand good bad/things they know is ok to do and things they know it is not ok for them to do.

And again, this flies in the face of your other thread.

My sister has a little girl will be 3 this April, and for example she knows she is not supposed to touch the TV especially with sticky hands. I watched her this weekend and we had Dora on and she likes to try and touch Dora.. While making a complete mess of a Pb&J I went to get her a drink, and when she thought I left and could not see her she stood up looked around and with sticky fingers outstretched she bolted to the TV..

Now with no knowledge of Sin, She knew she was not supposed to touch the TV. Otherwise why wait till the authority figure had left (like Eve) looked around to see if anyone was going to hold her accountable to her actions, then move to do something she knew she was not supposed to do?

If she was completely unaware of right and wrong then why wait till I was gone?

OK so, if you admit that she doesn't understand right and wrong, are you going to slit her throat for committing a wrong? Because you are using this as an analogy to Adam and Eve's actions in the garden, so if we present the analogy of how God responded, then it's pretty much Drich walking up to that girl and slitting her damn throat.

The same situation senerio plays out the same way with Eve. She waited till even Adam was not around to fall for her temptation.

She knew it was wrong by the very fact that she waited till she was alone. Ate the forbidden fruit and when what she expected did not happen, she passed it on to Adam.

So again why did God put the tree in the garden? Because again the tree and it's fruit represented choice. God wanted us to chose to either stay or leave. we chose to leave. Now the choice gets extended out via Christ, stay gone or come back.

Well if they have an ever-present choice available to them, and there is a nonzero chance they will select that choice (which must be true by definition, because if there is a zero chance that they will select it then it's not actually a choice) then they WILL eventually make the choice given eternity. It is mathematically impossible to have an event with a nonzero probability of occurring that never occurs as time increases without bound.

And I would indeed argue Adam and Eve did die that very day as God promised.

Adam lived for 900+ years.

You assume that our current fallen form was what God created in the garden. I believe we are a hybrid of what God created in the garden and 'monkey man' who lived outside of it. Eitherway it's Obvious 'we' are not what God created as we can no longer be in the presence of God without being 'blinded, burned, consumed' by his Holy presence, and yet in the garden Adam walked with God daily. What God created Died that very day, we are what is left.

You're reading stuff into the story that isn't there, and then you claim it's obvious. LOL. I can do that too. Let's see... Mary was a cheating slut and got preggers from some uncircumcised Roman soldiers (she was such a slut that 3 sperms from 3 different guys all made it to the egg at the same time) and then she just claimed that God knocked her up. The 3 different daddies of Jesus give him 3 different personalities which explains why he's contradicting himself left and right. Obvious, dude.

Also there were people who were in the presence of God long after the Garden of Eden who were not blinded/burned/consumed. Jacob wrestled with God all night long in a totally non homo way.

[Godscreated]

Biblical support please? They knew they had a responsibility to obey God, God told Adam, Adam told Eve, and Eve told the serpent.

GC

Are you saying that they had knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

You said they didn't and did not support your claim through scriptures, scriptures are the only place you can defend your claim. I made myself clear in my statement you just want to deflect so you want have to answer my challenge to you, my suggestion is to get busy or stop pestering Christians with your nonsense. By the way if you need the verses to what I said I'll give them after you answer my challenge, you are going to run into those verses if you try and answer honestly so I don't think I'll have to give them to you, unless you are not able to understand the Bible.

GC

[FebruaryOfReason]

God: sucks at child-proofing.

God sucks at damned near everything.

Sometimes He blows too!

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

Can you accept that it is possible to know right from wrong, without understanding the concept of Good and evil?

No.

Do you have children?

No.

have you spent any time with any toddlers?

Lots.

It goes without saying that a toddler does not understand the concept of sin, evil. As sin and evil are based on God's laws and where one's heart is in relation to a given sin.

Yet they still understand good bad/things they know is ok to do and things they know it is not ok for them to do.

Children grasp the twin concept of good and bad because they have been inculcated to do from the time they were old enough to do so. This is not the situation with Adam and Eve.

My sister has a little girl will be 3 this April, and for example she knows she is not supposed to touch the TV especially with sticky hands. I watched her this weekend and we had Dora on and she likes to try and touch Dora.. While making a complete mess of a Pb&J I went to get her a drink, and when she thought I left and could not see her she stood up looked around and with sticky fingers outstretched she bolted to the TV..

But HOW did the wee girl know not to touch the telly? Because her parents (or some other person) had told her not to do so, had told her that this was a bad thing.

Now with no knowledge of Sin, She knew she was not supposed to touch the TV. Otherwise why wait till the authority figure had left (like Eve) looked around to see if anyone was going to hold her accountable to her actions, then move to do something she knew she was not supposed to do?

There's no scriptural indication that Eve looked around for an authority figure before she gave in to the serpent's blandishments and took the fruit. Your niece looked around because she had been taught/told NOT to touch the television.

If she was completely unaware of right and wrong then why wait till I was gone?

That's precisely the point - she was aware of right and wrong, because the concepts had been taught to her. If no one had ever told her not to touch the telly, she would have done so before you left the room.
The same situation senerio plays out the same way with Eve. She waited till even Adam was not around to fall for her temptation.

She knew it was wrong by the very fact that she waited till she was alone. Ate the forbidden fruit and when what she expected did not happen, she passed it on to Adam.

I think you're being deliberately obtuse - the case of your niece and the case of Eve could not have been more different. The fruit represented the knowledge of good and evil. Without eating the fruit, Eve could have no way of knowing that disobeying God was an evil act. This is definitional, and I (I think) not subject to rational debate.

So again why did God put the tree in the garden? Because again the tree and it's fruit represented choice. God wanted us to chose to either stay or leave. we chose to leave.

Still a mug's game. God could have simply offered the choice, without all that tedious tree-business.

And I would indeed argue Adam and Eve did die that very day as God promised. You assume that our current fallen form was what God created in the garden. I believe we are a hybrid of what God created in the garden and 'monkey man' who lived outside of it. Eitherway it's Obvious 'we' are not what God created as we can no longer be in the presence of God without being 'blinded, burned, consumed' by his Holy presence, and yet in the garden Adam walked with God daily. What God created Died that very day, we are what is left.

Not really germane to my post, but OK. More attempts to show that the Bible doesn't mean what it says.

Boru

[Nihilist Virus]

I think you're being deliberately obtuse

i lol'd

[Cecelia]

There's a lot about the story that doesn't make sense.

Why did the Snake tempt them? If the Snake were Satan, then it makes absolutely no sense for God to punish snakes. If the snake weren't Satan, then why tempt Adam and Eve?

Young Earthers and Old Earthers still must answer the question of Dinosaurs. I mean even if we assume day = age, then surely death existed for everyone and everything before 'Adam and Eve'. Because Dinosaurs weren't eternal. God making man immortal doesn't make sense either. Why take it away for disobeying? And why give it back upon 'death' (but only if you obey God's laws!) Yahweh punished everyone for the actions of two people (according to the bible at least). As for young earthers... the age of the earth is already proven. At the very least they're consistent in ignoring science... I guess.

[Wyrd of Gawd]

There's a lot about the story that doesn't make sense.

Why did the Snake tempt them?  If the Snake were Satan, then it makes absolutely no sense for God to punish snakes.  If the snake weren't Satan, then why tempt Adam and Eve?

Young Earthers and Old Earthers still must answer the question of Dinosaurs.  I mean even if we assume day = age, then surely death existed for everyone and everything before 'Adam and Eve'.  Because Dinosaurs weren't eternal.  God making man immortal doesn't make sense either.  Why take it away for disobeying?  And why give it back upon 'death' (but only if you obey God's laws!)  Yahweh punished everyone for the actions of two people (according to the bible at least).  As for young earthers... the age of the earth is already proven.  At the very least they're consistent in ignoring science... I guess.

It's an ethnocentric Middle Eastern Jewish fairy tale.  It's not real.  There's no reason to believe it.

[Nihilist Virus]

Are you saying that they had knowledge of good and evil before they ate of the tree of knowledge of good and evil?

You said they didn't and did not support your claim through scriptures, scriptures are the only place you can defend your claim. I made myself clear in my statement you just want to deflect so you want have to answer my challenge to you, my suggestion is to get busy or stop pestering Christians with your nonsense. By the way if you need the verses to what I said I'll give them after you answer my challenge, you are going to run into those verses if you try and answer honestly so I don't think I'll have to give them to you, unless you are not able to understand the Bible.

GC

You are serious?  You are going to make me look this up despite the fact that we both know it's there plain black and white?

Genesis 3:22

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Is that clear enough for you?

THEY WERE PUNISHED FOR COMMITTING EVIL DESPITE NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL BECAUSE THEY HADN'T YET EATEN FROM THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL. FOR FUCK SAKE YOU ARE THICK.

[Godscreated]

You said they didn't and did not support your claim through scriptures, scriptures are the only place you can defend your claim. I made myself clear in my statement you just want to deflect so you want have to answer my challenge to you, my suggestion is to get busy or stop pestering Christians with your nonsense. By the way if you need the verses to what I said I'll give them after you answer my challenge, you are going to run into those verses if you try and answer honestly so I don't think I'll have to give them to you, unless you are not able to understand the Bible.

GC

You are serious?  You are going to make me look this up despite the fact that we both know it's there plain black and white?

Genesis 3:22

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:


Is that clear enough for you?

THEY WERE PUNISHED FOR COMMITTING EVIL DESPITE NOT KNOWING THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN GOOD AND EVIL BECAUSE THEY HADN'T YET EATEN FROM THE TREE OF THE KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL.  FOR FUCK SAKE YOU ARE THICK.

I'm only going to warn you this last time either cut the foul language or I'll stop communicating with you, of course that would make you happy, I'm sure you're getting tired of being put in your place.

Where does the Bible say that Adam committed evil, he sinned against God through disobedience and was punished for that disobedience. I showed you in an earlier post on this thread that Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to disobey God and that there were consequences to that disobedience. Once again you show your ignorance of scripture.

GC

[FebruaryOfReason]

...

I'm only going to warn you this last time either cut the foul language or I'll stop communicating with you, of course that would make you happy, I'm sure you're getting tired of being put in your place.

He's not tired of being put in his place.
You haven't "put him in his place" at all.
He's tired of the way you ignore the massive holes in your own argument. We all are.

Nihilist Virus - I tried to give you more rep for your post but for some reason I can only add to your rep once. Kudos anyway.