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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 1:51 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2016 at 2:02 pm by Esquilax.)
Regarding this "ooh, under the 'lack of belief' definition, rocks and cabbages are atheists!" claim that Chad seems to like so much, I don't see why that bothers anyone too much, because I don't particularly take the fact that word definitions can be stretched to absurd lengths if you use simplistic, overly literal terminology to be a weakness of the definition, instead of just a willingness of certain people to ignore context and nuance when it serves their purposes. But, for the sake of argument, I'm willing to concede that perhaps the definition could be changed, because it doesn't matter.
What I'm not willing to do is go with Wooters and others' absurd alternative, that we should define atheism as active disbelief, because why would we ever do that? It doesn't match what we actually believe, for one, and Wooters, if you truly think that you're exposing the true beliefs of atheists with that schtick, rather than just playing silly word games as a rhetorical stunt, then you've got another thing coming. We're not all going to suddenly alter what we believe simply because you've found a problem with how a word is defined.
The most sensible thing to do would simply be to append the definition to specify that we're talking about thinking agents, and not literally everything. I thought that would be obvious, given that we're talking about beliefs and thinking agents are the only things that can have those, but apparently some people smugly think that, because a definition doesn't automatically spell everything out in painstaking, simplistic terms for them, it must actually mean what ridiculous thing they can twist it to mean, or that people under that label secretly are something else, or some shit. This thing about the rocks is roughly the same as if I were to say "theism is defined as belief in a god. But that's so vague, and a god could be a cabbage god. That sounds silly, therefore the definition is wrong, or theists secretly believe something else, or all theists are cabbages."
"YOU take the hard look in the mirror. You are everything that is wrong with this world. The only thing important to you, is you." - ronedee
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 2:38 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2016 at 2:41 pm by robvalue.)
I think cabbages are out because the "ist" at the end of the word specifies a person holding that belief. But nothing will stop people with no evidence trying to redefine their opponent's position for them.
The best, most efficient thing I can do is ask the theist why I should care about their "God", even if it exists. What responses to do I get?
1) Isn't it interesting?
Answer: Sure. If I could study it or talk to it, it would be interesting. Come back when you can show me either of those things.
2) Join my religion or you'll be sorry!
Answer: No thanks.
3) You have no morality without God!
Answer: I'm doing just fine. Either God already gave me morality, or he's irrelevant to it. Either way, if he thinks I should act differently, he can come talk to me.
That's about it, really.
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 5:12 pm
Oh yeah, I forgot one.
"Don't you want to thank god?"
Sure, I'll thank him for making a tiny sliver of the universe not deadly to me, and glueing me to a rock. Good job.
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 5:27 pm
Lack of belief is not the best I can do, this is our 1 and only chance at life, don't waste it on some middle eastern bullshit, live life enjoy it, its over before you know it.
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 5:29 pm
(March 19, 2016 at 5:12 pm)robvalue Wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot one.
"Don't you want to thank god?"
Sure, I'll thank him for making a tiny sliver of the universe not deadly to me, and glueing me to a rock. Good job.
You forgot the food. You always have to thank for the food.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 5:34 pm
(March 18, 2016 at 4:10 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: As a believer I still like to follow the musings of the "opposition". Occasionally I find positions with which I agree. Even before reading this article, I adopted a signature mocking the idea that atheism is simply a lack of belief. I have posted this link as an invitation to discuss the points raised by the author who just so happens to be an atheist:
https://philosophersgroan.wordpress.com/...we-can-do/
That it is impossible to disprove the existence of a god really just evidence that theists have moved the argument out of the realm of reality. The realms of the imaginary have no limits and the goalposts can always be moved. For the believer, god will always be safe from scrutiny. For the skeptic, the only reason this is a subject worth discussing is because most people aren't skeptical.
Quote:For all the reasons I’ve outlined, on an evidentialist epistemology we are rationally required to believe that no such beings exist. And due to the weight of the evidence against them, we can be reasonably confident in saying that we know they don’t exist, too.
I'm confident enough to say I believe there is no god. The problem when you move god's goalposts outside of reality is that it's impossible to demonstrate that reality is influenced in any way by that god.
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 7:53 pm
(March 18, 2016 at 4:10 pm)ChadWooters Wrote: As a believer I still like to follow the musings of the "opposition". Occasionally I find positions with which I agree. Even before reading this article, I adopted a signature mocking the idea that atheism is simply a lack of belief. I have posted this link as an invitation to discuss the points raised by the author who just so happens to be an atheist:
https://philosophersgroan.wordpress.com/...we-can-do/
for me, it's not a lack of belief. that usually means a lack of understanding. And that's ok as long as one says that. I think they have the traits wrong and I don't think we have anything else to go on other than "something" is more reasonable then "nothing". There is no Omni dude pointing his fingure. Nor is this fall back position of "random" real. there is no random and thus 'random" as the first cause is a "blind faith statement". people are holding on to this position due to an emotion response to "not them"; And that's religious.
anti-logical Fallacies of Ambiguity
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 19, 2016 at 8:05 pm
Let's turn that around. Are untestable unfalsifiable claims all theists can do?
:jackoff:
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 20, 2016 at 5:12 am
(This post was last modified: March 20, 2016 at 5:13 am by robvalue.)
CD: Sometimes they accidentally make falsifiable claims, and they get falsified almost immediately.
(March 19, 2016 at 5:29 pm)Alex K Wrote: (March 19, 2016 at 5:12 pm)robvalue Wrote: Oh yeah, I forgot one.
"Don't you want to thank god?"
Sure, I'll thank him for making a tiny sliver of the universe not deadly to me, and glueing me to a rock. Good job.
You forgot the food. You always have to thank for the food.
Oh yeah!
Thank you very much for letting me be one of the people who doesn't starve to death today. You're so fucking awesome.
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RE: Is Lack of Belief the Best You Can Do?
March 20, 2016 at 5:22 am
See, was that so hard. Now look at that beautiful rainbow, isn't God great?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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