Ask an Audio geek

[AFTT47]

Vinyl has becomes a premium priced (aka expensive) niche market.  I think the general consensus is that people who listen to vinyl care more about how their music sounds.  Your not listening to your vinyl on a phone with cheap earbuds.  The good Artist/record labels will actually go back to the original recording tracks (before the mastering process), and create a vinyl specific master that is free from dynamic range compression and excessive volume levels.  

That is insane. If an artist/record label has the ability to access the original recording before it was butchered, why record it onto a vinyl record? That's idiocy. If you care about quality, record that original onto a CD or make it available in a lossless digital format like WAV.

I stand by my original statement: Vinyl is snake oil. It's a ridiculous product. Original recordings, free from coloration is good but offer it in a modern format. That's what we should be demanding. What they're doing by offering it in vinyl is promoting a stupid myth that digital = bad and there is something magical and good about vinyl. It's utter nonsense and you obviously know it.

It's your choice but to me, buying vinyl is perpetuating and validating a fraud. Why not demand proper mastering on a modern format? If there is a demand, someone will step up to fulfill it because there is money to be made.

[Kosh]

Vinyl has becomes a premium priced (aka expensive) niche market.  I think the general consensus is that people who listen to vinyl care more about how their music sounds.  Your not listening to your vinyl on a phone with cheap earbuds.  The good Artist/record labels will actually go back to the original recording tracks (before the mastering process), and create a vinyl specific master that is free from dynamic range compression and excessive volume levels.  

That is insane. If an artist/record label has the ability to access the original recording before it was butchered, why record it onto a vinyl record? That's idiocy. If you care about quality, record that original onto a CD or make it available in a lossless digital format like WAV.

I stand by my original statement: Vinyl is snake oil. It's a ridiculous product. Original recordings, free from coloration is good but offer it in a modern format. That's what we should be demanding. What they're doing by offering it in vinyl is promoting a stupid myth that digital = bad and there is something magical and good about vinyl. It's utter nonsense and you obviously know it.

It's your choice but to me, buying vinyl is perpetuating and validating a fraud. Why not demand proper mastering on a modern format? If there is a demand, someone will step up to fulfill it because there is money to be made.

 
I agree with you somewhat.  The truth is that the "Loudness War" problems were around long before vinyl made a resurgence.  Some people have been complaining about it since the mid 1990's, but the truth is that most music consumers just don't give a crap.  They hit the download button in iTunes like a rat hitting the feeder bar.  Their main or only listening source is as MP3 on their phone with a cheap pair of headphones which obviously isn't very revealing.

I've bought a few albums off HDTracks in the past.  CD is 16bit/44.1Khz, but HDTracks sells albums up to 24bit/192khz.  The ones I've purchased sound amazing on a full fidelity stereo system, but it's not because of the extra sampling rate and bits.  It's because these albums were remastered to a high standard.  I'm sure they would sound awesome on CD, but again we are talking about a premium price niche market.  
 
One thing to consider about Vinyl.  Yes, it can be expensive to buy new albums.  I personally don't buy many at all.  On average, I buy probably 5 a year.  I get my value off the used market.  I've purchased lots of up to 400 records at a time off craigslist for .10 each.

[AFTT47]

That is insane. If an artist/record label has the ability to access the original recording before it was butchered, why record it onto a vinyl record? That's idiocy. If you care about quality, record that original onto a CD or make it available in a lossless digital format like WAV.

I stand by my original statement: Vinyl is snake oil. It's a ridiculous product. Original recordings, free from coloration is good but offer it in a modern format. That's what we should be demanding. What they're doing by offering it in vinyl is promoting a stupid myth that digital = bad and there is something magical and good about vinyl. It's utter nonsense and you obviously know it.

It's your choice but to me, buying vinyl is perpetuating and validating a fraud. Why not demand proper mastering on a modern format? If there is a demand, someone will step up to fulfill it because there is money to be made.

 
One thing to consider about Vinyl.  Yes, it can be expensive to buy new albums.  I personally don't buy many at all.  On average, I buy probably 5 a year.  I get my value off the used market.  I've purchased lots of up to 400 records at a time off craigslist for .10 each.

Cost isn't the point. The point is that vinyl is CRAP. You obviously know it as well as I. It's like cars with carburetors. There's a reason we don't use that technology any more - it's crap compared to what we have now. There is no justification for it. If mastering is the problem (and I agree, it is) use premium mastering for discerning customers. Charge more for it even. But don't release it on a ridiculously inferior format like vinyl records. Or even if you do, have the option of a modern format for people with a clue.

[Alex K]

@AFT
I get the feeling you haven't heard music played on a really good 'table and system before. The specs may not match digital, but the sound can knock your socks off, hardly deserving the label crap

[AFTT47]

@AFT
I get the feeling you haven't heard music played on a really good 'table and system before. The specs may not match digital, but the sound can knock your socks off, hardly deserving the label crap

C'mon Alex, you know better than that. The vinyl system is inherently limited. You cannot get much better than 60 DB of dynamic range while CD gives you better than 90. Same with signal to noise ratio. Hell. MP3 at 256 KB/S gives you better specs than you can possibly get from vinyl records - without the inevitable degradation caused by a diamond stylus biting into soft vinyl at a pressure density of several tons/square inch.

Vinyl works but it's inferior to what we have available - vastly inferior. So what's the point?

[Alex K]

Numbers are important, all I'm saying is that a really good record on an excellent system don't sound crap, it sounds absolutely lovely and even jaw dropping. The typical euphonic characteristics can give it a more liquid and organic feel, which in many cases does not detract from the listening experience while preserving a great sense of space. After all, we don't listen to test noises, but to music. And what makes music connect with a listener can't simply be measured by sn ratios, distortion level and flatness of frequency response. That doesn't suddenly make magical speaker cables etc. valid accessories of course.

[AFTT47]

Numbers are important, all I'm saying is that a really good record on an excellent system don't sound crap, it sounds absolutely lovely.

Fine. But a digital representation of the same sound is truer to the original recording - without the degradation issues. So what is the point of vinyl? Nostalgia? That's fine too but admit it's nostalgia. Don't pretend there is any logical reason for using a recording technology which is demonstrably vastly inferior in every measurable way to digital techniques.

This reminds me of the replicator thing on 24th century Star Trek series. There's nothing wrong with honoring and preferring food grown, prepared and cooked by hand. But it's silly to pretend such is superior to what the replicator produces.

Vinyl records can indeed record and reproduce sound at an acceptable enough fidelelity level - but digital techniques are measurably better in every way. If you have some emotional attachment to the vinyl method, fine. But don't pretend it makes any logical sense.

[Alex K]

No... but do you listen to music for logical reasons? Because I sure don't. I wouldn't even know what that looked like. Sure, digital sound reproduction if done right cannot only be arbitrarily precise but should also be able to emulate any less exact reproduction techniques.

[ignoramus]

It's definitely nostalgia related.
Digital technology can emulate the "warm" sound of anything if needed to reproduce a particular sound.

No vinyl will pass a double blind test as superior since digital can match the quality.
Again, it's all about what they are trying to accomplish with their master.

[Alex K]

Interestingly, I've heard very very impressive keyboard percussion solos on vinyl, material one would think is particularly difficult. I didn't seem to miss any dynamic range. I suspect that such material indeed is often compressed to death on CD releases in order to appeal to a certain market.

edit:huh? I'm not awake yet