Dr. Craig is a liar.

[FatAndFaithless]

Because a 'supernatural' event by definition can't be verified by science.. we'd have to invent an entirely new method to determine that a supernatural mechanism was at work. The best science can do is say "here's a phenomenon that we don't currently understand."

[Huggy Bear]

It CAN be verified, just not explained.

[LadyForCamus]

It CAN be verified, just not explained.

How?

[FatAndFaithless]

No, the phenomenon can be verified. It can be verified that event "X" has occurred/is occurring/can be replicated. The mechanism by which a phenomenon operates can be explained by science if the mechanism is within the boundaries of science. If the mechanism is "a god did it" or "enough faith was accumulated to make something happen," then we (currently) have no way of scientifically investigating that mechanism, let ALONE verifying it.

If you want to say "Event "X" is a supernatural event," go right ahead. But don't try to rope science into your justification when all science can do is say "We don't currently have an explanation for event "X."

[TheRocketSurgeon]

Thanks for explaining for me, guys. I'm trying to do about six things at once, only one of which is this forum, at the moment.

But that's basically what I would have said.

Since magic has never been shown to be anything other than human imagination, and there's an issue (by sheer definition) with trying to verify the supernatural through testing, I'd have a high degree of skepticism. The degree of proof I require to see that mass attracts mass (aka gravity) is fairly low, because the claim is not a complicated or lavish one.

But to demonstrate that magic is real, and not just human imagination, well I'd want to be very sure of the methodology used to demonstrate it, since it's an entirely new phenomenon outside of the realm of storytelling.

On occasion, religion does make claims where they say their magic interacts with the material world, in such a way that science can test it... and EVERY TIME it's tested, it turns out that the magical claims fail. The prayer-healing studies are a classic example.

And yet, I keeeep seeing the "power of prayer to heal the sick" claims, simply because it's in your myth-book.

[Huggy Bear]

How?

I'm speaking of what defines "supernatural".

[FatAndFaithless]

How?

I'm speaking of what defines "supernatural".

Define it for us.  Succinctly and lucidly, please.

[Huggy Bear]

Thanks for explaining for me, guys. I'm trying to do about six things at once, only one of which is this forum, at the moment.

But that's basically what I would have said.

Since magic has never been shown to be anything other than human imagination, and there's an issue (by sheer definition) with trying to verify the supernatural through testing, I'd have a high degree of skepticism. The degree of proof I require to see that mass attracts mass (aka gravity) is fairly low, because the claim is not a complicated or lavish one.

But to demonstrate that magic is real, and not just human imagination, well I'd want to be very sure of the methodology used to demonstrate it, since it's an entirely new phenomenon outside of the realm of storytelling.

On occasion, religion does make claims where they say their magic interacts with the material world, in such a way that science can test it... and EVERY TIME it's tested, it turns out that the magical claims fail. The prayer-healing studies are a classic example.

And yet, I keeeep seeing the "power of prayer to heal the sick" claims, simply because it's in your myth-book.

No one ever made any claims about 'prayer' healing but the bible state clearly that FAITH heals, that power lies solely within the individual, and if you think that science hasn't studied this phenomena, then I'd advise you to look into what science refers to as the placebo effect.

http://www.scientificamerican.com/articl...-the-mind/

Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind
Belief is powerful medicine, even if the treatment itself is a sham.

[FatAndFaithless]

Are you seriously going to try to use the fucking placebo effect as an example of 'faith' healing?

[Huggy Bear]

That's what the placebo effect is...
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/the...rk-it-does

A placebo resembles faith healing. Yet faith healing is usually considered more a matter of belief in magic and the supernatural rather than confidence in the science of pharmacology.

From a scientific perspective, faith healing is unexplained, incomprehensible, and should not work. Yet it does work. The same is true of drug placebo effects, of course. Scientists recognize that there are placebo effects but have trouble accounting for them.