Transexuals

[robvalue]

How do the religious square this I wonder?

God can't even consistently line up brain and body configurations? The same reason he forgets to give some people morality I suppose. And keeps on making gays then wanting them treated as lesser.

He's an incompetent asshole.

I dread to think what disgusting rationalizations explain this all away. I'm sure humans get the blame, one way or another. Or "nature", as if it's an entity God isn't responsible for or even aware of.

[Vincent]

Then I have 0 problem calling you a bigot.

Physical men (including the ones who identify as women) shouldn't use a women's bathroom/lockerroom because it makes a lot of women feel uncomfortable, and instead they should have the option of using a gender neutral bathroom so that no one feels uncomfortable. If that makes me a bigot in your eyes, then so be it. I already knew you didn't like me anyway.

Hey, C_L :}

Trust me, if gender neutral bathrooms were an option everywhere, that would make everything so much easier on trans people. Unfortunately though, that's not the case. 

Now let me paint you a picture. Let's say you pass by me at the mall, and you see me and automatically assume I'm a guy. I have an inch of hair. I wear thicker, male clothes that hide the curve-like figure I was cursed with at birth. I have on a binder that makes my chest appear as flat as any man's. I wear masculine sunglasses to conceal my soft cheekbones. 

Now, imagine you're in the bathroom, washing your hands. And I walk in. And your first thought is that I'm in the wrong bathroom, and you feel instantly uncomfortable. But ah, I have a vagina! So I have every right to be in there!

Thing is, C_L, what are the chances of you seeing my vagina? What are the chances of cis men seeing it in the men's room? Which restroom would be not only safer for me, but also easier for everyone? When's the last time you saw another person's genitals in the bathroom? All you tend to see is the gender they express themselves as. 

Transgender people just want to use the bathroom like a normal human being. And I know it might be harder for you with your cis privilege to grasp the struggle and fear that us trans people have to face in this basic matter, but I encourage you to try.

 A transgender woman wants to use the ladies bathroom, but she might get yelled at or glared at by people like you. 

If she uses the men's bathroom, she WILL get glared at and yelled at, and possibly assaulted. How does the kind of terror she must be facing compare to your feeling of discomfort at seeing her? You really have no idea what she is experiencing, and I guarantee it's worse than your petty ordeal. Much worse. She just wants to pee. Unless you are interested in looking through the stall door at her, I'm not sure what your worry is.  

Some trans people refuse to even use public restrooms, and as a result develop severe bladder infections or kidney issues. 

And consider this as well: Some trans women pass so well (if they're on hormones) that you may have been in a bathroom with a couple already, at some point in your life! And obviously nothing bad happened, am I right? 

Point is, just let the woman piss. She's got more than enough on her plate that you will never experience, without people breathing down her neck. There are bigger things to worry about than the lady in the stall next to you.

[robvalue]

I don't give a fuck who I share a bathroom with as long as they don't hurt anyone. I've never seen anyone be hurt in a bathroom in my life, not even close.

I have accidentally gone in the ladies a few times. I even managed not to randomly attack the women in there.

[rexbeccarox]

Then I have 0 problem calling you a bigot.

Physical men (including the ones who identify as women) shouldn't use a women's bathroom/lockerroom because it makes a lot of women feel uncomfortable, and instead they should have the option of using a gender neutral bathroom so that no one feels uncomfortable. If that makes me a bigot in your eyes, then so be it. I already knew you didn't like me anyway.

Whether I like you or not makes no difference. 

First, you oversimplify by saying there should be a third option. As a store owner, I only had one teeny bathroom, and certainly no option for three of them.

Second, which women does it make uncomfortable? Please... I'm just asking you to think a little more deeply here. Would they seriously be more comfortable with this guy?



And how comfortable do you think he is to be made to use the ladies' room?

You said you think it should be post-surgical.

So... how do you think this woman is faring in the men's room?



Either of them could very well be post-, pre-, or no-surgery-at-all-thank-you-very-much.

... and why would you be uncomfortable changing in front of someone just because they were born with different genitalia than you? And how would you even necessarily know?

[Jackalope]

I can almost excuse people who are ignorant of the struggles trans people face. I think it's common for a cisgendered person such as myself to have difficulty grasping.

Turning that ignorance into discrimination, that's something I can't stomach. I can't imagine what it would be like to be transgendered, but I can empathize and accept people for who they are - and I don't care about the plumbing of the person in the stall next to me.

[Aractus]

Transsexuals suffer from a diagnosable affliction called Gender dysphoria or gender identity disorder. So then how is this not a mental illness if the word/term mental illness literally means:

Mental illness refers to a wide range of mental health conditions — disorders that affect your mood, thinking and behavior. Examples of mental illness include depression, anxiety disorders, schizophrenia, eating disorders and addictive behaviors.
(as per the Mayo clinic)

If this is a mental disorder, then why do we allow the patients to run the asylum? Why do we have mentally compromised people trying to set a national policy that allows them to indulge their disorder?

would we allow people afflicted with Munchhausen access to their kids? Or if you want to look at other people who just hurt themselves, would we allow people who want to cut themselves places they could do so?

Yes it's a mental disorder (according to DSM-5). BUT; some of us don't believe in mental disorders. I'm one of them. I believe that mental health is on a continuum, and that while Gender dysphoria is certainly a condition, it's not a disorder. This is agreed with by the French government.

[robvalue]

Good point Aractus. It's only a "disorder" if someone or other says it is. Nothing is inherently a "disorder". It's a matter of judgement. Even if the word is used accurately, it doesn't necessarily say anything about their general mental competency.

I find other men waving their dicks around in the bathroom uncomfortable. Too bad for me. I go in the cubicle. It makes no difference to me who is in the cubicle next to me, what they look like or what genitals they have. But if I have no option and I have to join in the dick waving, so be it. No one is hurting me. My discomfort is my problem.

[I_am_not_mafia]

The only proven effective treatment for transgendered is to let them transition...It is not ideology. It is practice and experience.

Transitioning may remove the feelings of gender-dysphoria. Sex reassignment is still not effective at reducing the suicide rates or other psychological problems, like substance abuse, of trans-gendered people. There are deeper issues at play.

Utterly wrong.

Transitioning successfully allows a transsexual to be happier in themselves and to function normally in society. As a consequence suicide rates decrease. That doesn't mean to say that suicide reaches zero because of bigotry in society. But suicide is not zero for any segment of society.

The international standard of psychiatric care for transsexuals determines whether a patient is likely to self harm or is at risk of suicide and if they are then they will treat those problems first.

For those who wonder why physical integrity should be prioritized, it is because subjective mental states are more malleable than objective biological states. People can have profound changes in their mental state, including their sense of self, without the use of advanced technology.

Also wrong.

There are mental states that are much harder to shift than your physical states. Problems from childhood abuse or phobias gained from childhood for example are more likely to stay with you your entire life. The fact that as humans we have inbuilt instincts and moral feelings demonstrate that there are certain mental states that cannot be changed.

[I_am_not_mafia]

As for lockerrooms, I'm sorry but I would not feel comfortable with a man going in there while I'm in there changing/showering/etc... even if he did say he identified as female. I have no problem with a 3rd option of "gender neutral" bathroom/lockerrooms though. 

The thing is, you're thinking of someone who lives full time as a man going into a woman's locker room or toilets / bathroom and it being obvious. Whereas the reality of the situation is that there is someone there who looks like another woman and who other people do not suspect as being transsexual. Or maybe they do but then they could just as easily be a cis gendered woman who looks rather masculine.

Whereas what the NC law for example requires is that trans-men, that is female to male transsexuals, now have to use the same facilities as you. So in reality, what you are suggesting is more likely to happen because of these laws. For example:

http://crossdreamers.tumblr.com/post/113...n-to-fight

[I_am_not_mafia]

I think in this case the effect would be less that would effect less people. Also, what makes you think it's a low probability for a woman to feel uncomfortable if a physical man walked into their bathroom/lockerroom? But again, the solution to this should be to make a 3rd bathroom.

You're falling into the trap of binary religious thinking here

https://atheistforums.org/thread-37549.html

You're thinking either a woman or a man going into the bathroom and not thinking of someone who lives full time as a woman and who looks as a woman and who may currently, or previously, had the wrong genitalia.