The West's Response to Islam and violence......

[Brian37]

Going through this shit again with a French person on twitter. This shit pisses me off both with Americans and Europeans. You could be talking about Boston or California or Belgium or New York on 9/11 or  the Hebdo attacks and you wont get  an argument from me that that was Quran and Islam justified violence, all of it YES YES YES....


But in that admission, what I hate my fellow human beings doing is falling for the demagoguery and fear thinking blanket judgments is a solution to solve the problem. Demagoguery with "keep em all out" or "get rid of them" is what leads humans to forget we are not a separate species, and that type of selling fear to combat a problem leads humans to respond to cruelty with more or worse cruelty. 

If one wants to attack the ideas of a holy book or a character in a holy book, that is fair game. It is also fair game to say holy books are used as weapons, and they are. But if our species doesn't treat individuals as such, we will end up ourselves becoming monsters.

As a character Mohammed does not come across as the nice guy many in Islam want to paint him as. But whatever I personally think of how that character is depicted, that still does not nor should it give anyone licence to use blanket guilt as a solution. That is what Hitler did with Jews. But it is the same Demagoguery that allowed mass white Christian resistance to the civil rights movement which lead to lynchings even prior to that movement. That demagoguery was Bible based, not Quran based. 

It isn't the criticism or even blasphemy of Islam I object to, it is the narrative and language used. Of course we should hate religiously justified violence and stand up to it. I object to carpet bombing and I am not willing to risk harm to individuals by proxy of name or religion because of the actions of others.

Humans still have rights and even westerners are falling for the same demagoguery the right wing violent Muslims sell. Muslims didn't write the first god of Abraham, nor were they the first to justify tribalism based on religion. I am not going to assume because of the current state of too much of the east, that nobody from there is capable of compassion or empathy or that nobody wants to free themselves from that type of rule. 

Our Muslim Congressman Kieth Ellison and the likes of Malala would certainly not value the likes of Isis and certainly want places like Saudi Arabia and Iran theocracy free. And to say nobody can escape that mindset is patently false because there are also plenty of former Muslim social media pages all over the web.

I refuse to become inhuman to my fellow humans because things can be tough. Carpet scapegoating will get innocent humans hurt in that process. Just like my attitude with our courts and jury system. I would rather risk letting 10 guilty go free than to risk harm to one innocent person. Demagoguery is not criticism or merely pissing someone off by offending them. Demagoguery is mob rule by presuming guilt. 

Demagoguery is beyond mere blasphemy, it is beyond merely offending. Demagoguery is what Isis sells and Iran and Saudi Arabia sell, but to say the west doesn't do it or Israel as well doesn't do it, would be bullshit. Humans far too easily and far to much respond to harm by responding with violence and many times even worse in response. That is what all humans should want to fight, that base instinct of fear. 

Holy books are weapons, but not just one, all of them are. If a Muslim murdered my family member, yes I would blame it on their religion if that is the book they use for the excuse for doing it. But I damn sure am not going to assume guilt and suggest mass incarceration or mass deportation and especially not mass murder. 

It still remains that those who fail to learn from the atrocities of the past are doomed to repeat them. Go after the book, the characters in the book and especially the excuses made for theocracies and violence, yes. But don't use blankets and carpet bombing in trying to resolve a tough situation. More fear to fight fear is not a solution. It merely sets up our species to continue the cycle. 

Religion does teach you to hate individuals you have never met. But don't scream about Islam's problems rightfully then turn around yourselves and hate people you have never met as individuals in return. Don't become the monster you say you are fighting.

[mr_j936]

I used to think like you, and I had a few muslim friends I thought they were good individuals. Until it turned out that even those select few hard warm feelings for terrorist organizations...

You don't have to hate them, or keep them out of anywhere. But when they ask for private courts, halal food to be served in public schools, special uniforms etc... the answer should be a firm NO with no regards to the idiots who cry islamophobia and think goat fucking is a race...

[abaris]

The problem isn't that extremist organisations need some kind of response. It is the obvious stupidity of the way it is done. It only takes a moment to try and walk in the shoes of those being on the receiving end of the more or less indiscriminate attacks. If one of your loved ones were killed in such a way, it's only natural to seek revenge. So, these attacks actually strenghten the cause of extremists.

[Minimalist]

So, these attacks actually strenghten the cause of extremists.

And the same is true of Paris or 9-11 or London.  It works both ways, Abs.

[abaris]

And the same is true of Paris or 9-11 or London.  It works both ways, Abs.

Yes, but it's not the answer, unless you want to continue this abyssmal game of give and take for all eternity. There has to be some better answer, such as drying out their ressources and take out their leaders without taking out a wedding celebration on the way. Or grandma harvesting what little vegetables she was able to grow. Both are actually real incidents.

The Israelis before descending into brainless rightwingery with Sharon and Netanyahu, had the better answer. Do your homework and send out your specialist teams to take care of your enemies on the ground. Noone got hurt, other than your actual target.

[Minimalist]

We're doing that.  Obama's strategy is actually working but every time there is an attack it drives the wedge deeper.  Sadly, people are no where near as evolved as you hope they are.

Yes, the Israelis are descending further and further into fascism.  And they get elected every time.

[Brian37]

I used to think like you, and I had a few muslim friends I thought they were good individuals. Until it turned out that even those select few hard warm feelings for terrorist organizations...

You don't have to hate them, or keep them out of anywhere. But when they ask for private courts, halal food to be served in public schools, special uniforms etc... the answer should be a firm NO with no regards to the idiots who cry islamophobia and think goat fucking is a race...

Huh, there are billions of them, not just those you met. Secondly of course if they try to interject religion into law or public schools they should be treated like any other religion under the Constitution, let it all in, or agree to keep the venue neutral, but no, just like Christians, they don't get to set up a religious pecking order through government law.

The can demand private courts all they want, but they wont get one anymore than a Christian only court. The Constitution protects us from monopolies from Muslims and Christians and Jews and even atheists. 

But no and fuck you, we don't need your demagoguery. You attack bad claims, and the words and characters in the Hadiths and Quran, yes, but humans still have rights. You don't have to like what anyone claims as a claim, and you can blaspheme the claim all you want. But no, you don't get to assume guilt in a blanket manor of every individual. In the west we dont use mob rule, or presumption of guilt of the individual. The law applies equally even to people who have claims and ideas we don't like. I promise you, as messed up as the Middle East is, Islam will NOT take over the entire world and make it one giant theocracy.

[Brian37]

And the same is true of Paris or 9-11 or London.  It works both ways, Abs.

Yes, but it's not the answer, unless you want to continue this abyssmal game of give and take for all eternity. There has to be some better answer, such as drying out their ressources and take out their leaders without taking out a wedding celebration on the way. Or grandma harvesting what little vegetables she was able to grow. Both are actually real incidents.

The Israelis before descending into brainless rightwingery with Sharon and Netanyahu, had the better answer. Do your homework and send out your specialist teams to take care of your enemies on the ground. Noone got hurt, other than your actual target.

I hate their leadership, but Islam doesn't get a pass, neither should, all three of the religions of Abraham drag the rest of the world into their stupid petty sky hero war, and none of the three want to face the core case of human divisions between the three is the stupid idea of a "chosen people".

[abaris]

I hate their leadership, but Islam doesn't get a pass, neither should, all three of the religions of Abraham drag the rest of the world into their stupid petty sky hero war, and none of the three want to face the core case of human divisions between the three is the stupid idea of a "chosen people".

Who said, Islam should get a pass? It's only that muslims are people too, with human feelings and human reactions. Kill off their loved ones and you worsen the situation.

[Brian37]

I hate their leadership, but Islam doesn't get a pass, neither should, all three of the religions of Abraham drag the rest of the world into their stupid petty sky hero war, and none of the three want to face the core case of human divisions between the three is the stupid idea of a "chosen people".

Who said, Islam should get a pass? It's only that muslims are people too, with human feelings and human reactions. Kill off their loved ones and you worsen the situation.

I agree, Muslims are people too. I think all sides need to go after the assholes who use holy books as weapons and understand on a planet of 7 billion there is no "chosen people" and nobody will force the other to submit. Nobody is special and nobody is a house guest or pet. I am tired of the world's warmongers on all sides.