Free Will - Yes/No?

[Edwardo Piet]

@ Squishy

Yeah I'd say not only do I 100% agree with that but I'd wager a lot of the details where we appear to disagree are probably mere semantics.

Squishy is highly rational and erudite and when he thinks stuff through he knows what he's fucking talking about.

-Hammy

[emjay]

@ Squishy

Yeah I'd say not only do I 100% agree with that but I'd wager a lot of the details where we appear to disagree are probably mere semantics.

Squishy is highly rational and erudite and when he thinks stuff through he knows what he's fucking talking about.

-Hammy

I'm sure we do and I'm sure it is just semantics when we don't (coupled with the fact that some of the terminology is over my head   ). It's very easy to get lost in words in this sort of thing and end up with two people on the same side arguing as you say, semantics.

Anyway, no need to speak up for me like that   I don't take compliments well and I certainly don't class myself as highly rational... just a general dumb shit with occasional moments of clarity 

[Edwardo Piet]

I'll say that if I don't provide a logical argument for something or cite any evidence, whatever I say is purely opinion.

So it is 'merely' my strong opinion that I consider you awesome and highly rational and erudite, Squishy.

When you say you don't take compliments well do you mean you have trouble agreeing with them, or do you mean you'd rather I stopped praising you so openly?

-Hammy

[emjay]

I'll say that if I don't provide a logical argument for something or cite any evidence, whatever I say is purely opinion.

So it is 'merely' my strong opinion that I consider you awesome and highly rational and erudite, Squishy.

When you say you don't take compliments well do you mean you have trouble agreeing with them, or do you mean you'd rather I stopped praising you so openly?

-Hammy

Well thank you   But it's my opinion that you're far more rational and erudite than me... judging by the fact that I had to type in 'define erudite' in Google 

Bit of both... it makes me feel uncomfortable and yeah, sometimes I do have trouble agreeing with them and yeah, I would prefer if you didn't 

[LadyForCamus]

Why not?  I'm not being asshole, I just really don't get it.  How am I not fully in control of making that decision?

For us to be fully in control would require other factors beyond our control to not control our decisions, but they do. Any reasons we give for our behavior we can then ask "but what was the reason for that?" ultimately the reasons stretch back into the past beyond our own consciousness. These "reasons" being causes, being causality... it ultimately stretches back not just past our own conscious awareness, and not just before our adulthood, and not just before our birth, but back to the very beginning of the universe or in other words back to causality and time itself within existence itself, which I believe is eternal (the concept of existence itself ever being anything other than existent by definition seems entirely incoherent to me: existence itself has always existed, but time, causality and "the universe" began).

Oh and you're not an asshole at all. You're absolutely lovely and I'm happy to try and explain my own views on the matter to you

-Hammy

Sorry it took me all day to respond! Hmmm...okay. So, let's say the reason I "decided" to hold my pee is because I was watching a funny movie and I didn't want to miss my favorite part. In my mind, I weighed my options, and then "chose" to wait until a commercial. I could have just as easily gotten up and went pee. But you're saying that my choice wasn't really a free choice at all? Because I happened to like that particular spot in the movie then there is no real way I would have made any other choice? Something along those lines?

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't agree or disagree. I don't care about it that much. I feel like I have free will. That's all that matters really. Maybe everything is externally determined. Oh well. I don't have any control over that. So I just go on feeling like I'm making my own choices even though I'm actually not. As long as it's not another person forcing me to do something then I suppose it doesn't really matter.

For the most part I operate exactly the same way too. It's only in my more dispassionate moments of reflection when I feel it helps me calm down and recognize that no one is the ultimate cause of their own behavior, even when malicious bullies treat me like shit... I find it easier to deal with their behavior when I dispassionately reflect on how their behavior is a problem to be dealt with and ultimately I'm just lucky I'm not them.

But even if I did believe in free will I'd say I'd still be a very forgiving person and very non-vengeful, but if I really thought people were the ultimate causes of their actions then when someone did a very immoral act it would make more logical sense to say they 'deserved' punishing because they 'could have done otherwise' but without free will that doesn't even make sense.

For the most part I behave on autopilot and feel free and behave like I have free will, but I realize I don't whenever I reflect on it.

-Hammy

[Edwardo Piet]

Well thank you   But it's my opinion that you're far more rational and erudite than me... judging by the fact that I had to type in 'define erudite' in Google 

Haha, I'd say when it comes to rationality we're more or less the same. Maybe you're a little more, maybe I'm a little more, let's just say we're about equally rational eh?

As for erudite.... personally I think you're more well read than me. I also think you're a lot more well educated than me, whilst I wouldn't say you're more intelligent -- we're both intelligent -- I would reckon that when you were my age you were more educated than I am, and probably when you were younger than me you were more educated than I am now at 27. I'm quite poorly educated and intellectually lazy. I have trouble focusing on reading most books and I have zero qualifactions, I never finish learning anything.

I seem more erudite and well educated than I am because I tend to give my educated opinions on the few subjects that I have read up on and thought about a lot. I tend to not get involved in all the countless subjects I know fuck-all about lol.

I'd say I merely have a relatively large vocabulary. But reading a dictionary for 8 months everyday can do that to a guy, lol.

-Hammy

[Losty]

I don't believe in free will in the sense the EP is referring to it, but I don't like strict yes or no options especially when the OP doesn't define "free will". 'Sides where's the 'fuck all polls' option?

-Kittencorn

[Edwardo Piet]

Sorry it took me all day to respond!   Hmmm...okay.  So, let's say the reason I "decided" to hold my pee is because I was watching a funny movie and I didn't want to miss my favorite part.  In my mind, I weighed my options, and then "chose" to wait until a commercial.  I could have just as easily gotten up and went pee.  But you're saying that my choice wasn't really a free choice at all?  Because I happened to like that particular spot in the movie then there is no real way I would have made any other choice?  Something along those lines?

I'd say yes, there was no real way but I'd say it wasn't so much that you 'happened' to like that particular spot in the movie, but your reasons for wanting to stay were perfectly valid, but not exhaustive -- those reasons aren't the full story. Where do those reasons come from? It's less that you 'happened' to like it, and more that you were caused to.

I'd say that when we ask why you did something and say the reason is your desire, that's true but then we have to ask the reason for your desire, and then your reason for that. Ultimately these 'reasons' are about cause and effect. Assuming we believe that the nature of reality involves cause and effect, there's no reason for us to not believe it applies to everything, so our desires must come from somewhere else ultimately, as far back as the beginning of the universe/time -- as far back as the first cause.

-Hammy

[Edwardo Piet]

I don't believe in free will in the sense the EP is referring to it, but I don't like strict yes or no options especially when the OP doesn't define "free will". 'Sides where's the 'fuck all polls' option?

-Kittencorn

I think there should be 7 options.

1. Yes.
2. No.
3. Fuck all polls.
4. Poll all fucks.
5. Fuck a poll in the butt.
6. What the fuck is free will?
7. Fuck all free will threads.

Seriously, this must be like my 20th free will thread, and some were made by me too. I have discussed it already in multiple threads before you even joined and since you have joined too. Like, oh my fuck lol.

I only don't tire of it completely because it's second nature to me: I was also debating it before I even joined AF, too. And I have talked about it on other forums. In fact I even thought about it as a child. That kinda happens when you have a super cray dad who talks to you about stuff like solipsism and the eternal recurrence years before you've even hit the onset of puberty.

-Hammy