Hell and God cant Co-exist.

[Drich]

There are 18 verses we use to establish the doctrine of "Omnipresence."
The 'paradox' you think you found in with the doctrine of an omni-max God, NOT the description of God as the bible describes Him.

Drich, could you please clarify that distinction between omnipresence and omnimax you're making. I'm not fully on board with your interpretation especially when I consider the following verses:

“In old days, God spoke to our fathers in many ways and by many means,[1] through the prophets; now at last 2 in these times he has spoken to us with a Son to speak for him; a Son, whom he has appointed to inherit all things, just as it was through him that he created this world of time; 3 a Son, who is the radiance of his Father’s splendour, and the full expression of his being; all creation depends, for its support, on his enabling word.”  – Hebrews 1:3

“And yet, after all, he is not far from any one of us; it is in him that we live, and move, and have our being; thus, some of your own poets have told us,…” – Acts 17:24-28

”He has put everything under his dominion, and made him the head to which the whole Church is joined,so that the church is his body, the completion of Him who everywhere and in all things is complete.” – Ephesians 1:23

[i]“Where can I go, then, to take refuge from thy spirit, to hide from thy view? If I should climb up to heaven, thou art there; if I sink down to the world beneath, thou art present still.” – Psalm 139: 7-12

To me these support a doctrine that God serves as the universal ground of being which is what I think you also mean by omnipresent, but I 'm not sure. That doctrine is a far cry from that of these recalcitrant atheists who seem entrenched in the idea of some stern old man walking around in a fiery pit. Such is the poverty of both their intellect and imagination. They cannot be bothered to raise their eyes above the material world and their own sensual desires to witness spiritual things.
[/i]

Omni-max is a short term that incompasses all the different omni doctrine/aspects ascribed to God. Omni benevolent
Omnipotence, Omnipresent etc..

I have found that our definitions for these omni aspects of God are lacking, and even in cases like omni benevolence not biblically supported. Here's the Key to all of this, God never uses these terms to describe himself ever. These terms are constructs based off of a compilations of verses that have been tied together to, in a word to try and describe the nature of God. Which is misleading at times and even paradoxical at others. These are our words and doctrine and not His. Otherwise why has he never used these words to describe Himself when He was literally describing Himself in scripture?

The short answer here is God belongs in a class that does not lend it self to foolish and easily constructed paradoxes. 'If God is all powerful could he create a rock He could not lift?' 'If God is all loving, how can their be a hell?' etc.. God's description of Himself is far more complete that the omni-max foolishness we ascribe to Him. God simply calls Himself the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and end to all things.

Like most I heard this did not understand and dismissed it, and for a long time went with the omni-max foolishness. Then I started coming across the paradoxes that seemingly refute God be destroying the very Idea of an omni anything. So I prayed, and God gave me understanding to the meaning alpha and Omega.

The short answer here is an Alpha and Omega God does what ever He wants. As an alpha, He is leader/King He makes the decisions. As Omega He is the last word, the ultimate standard, He does not have to check himself in with any other standard or law. He is unopposed. All check themselves with him or will be checked by Him.


 Although this explanation is simple it truly is able to encompass what we've tried and failed to do with the doctrine of omni-max God. It places God is a supreme position of power and authority and what's more it is paradox free.

Can and alpha and omega create a rock so big He can not lift it? Sure if He wants to.

How can a Alpha and Omega Have a Hell? Because as the bible says, He does not love everyone. There are those in whom God has said He hated.

Being described as an Alpha and Omega God means God gets to be whom ever and whatever He says He is and is not bound to the rules or definition we place on an Omni-max god. Because an Omni-max God is not an omega. He is bound by the defination of the term to be all-everything, which means He can't be less than God which kind fuels the muslim argument that Jesus could never be the son of God or God incarnate. But again, an Alpha and Omega could be less than an all powerful God. He could be All human and still retain his authority.

[Drich]

The idea of an all loving god is incompatible with hell.  That much should be obvious to anyone with half a brain.  We'll get the bullshit of "God doesn't send you to hell, you send yourself there!"  Which is bullshit, because God created hell in the first place, and set up all the rules himself so they can fuck off with that shit.

...and if God is not all loving???

-Or rather can you provide book chapter and verse that God is or is supposed to be 'All loving?'

[Drich]

I don't, in Steve's words, experience the presence of god right now.  Does that mean I'm currently in hell?

Actually you do, you just can't identify your experience. You ascribe what you experience other thing besides God. In that you experience (as we all do) God through creation. Hell Is the absence of all and everything God is or has created. I will promise you, once you enter the gates, you will not have to ask whether or not your in Hell.

[Drich]

The concept of Hell--unless reserved only for the worst of the worst--would make Casper a pretty big fucking asshole.  I mean if that's the creator of our universe, he's not 'god', he's just named God because nobody can do what needs to be done with him.

That's... Ironic.

You assume you get a say in defining who and what God should be. You have created a God who can not send anyone to Hell, you've tested this God found Him not to exist, and become an 'atheist.' Yet you hold on to the idea that you get to define who and what God is supposed to be.

I don't know, but what if...

God is nothing you can imagine on your own... What if you and you friends are wrong and God is a little more complex that what man can make up, and does indeed allow people to goto Hell if they so choose. IDK again, but what if your idea of God and who and what God is supposed to be from the very beginning is what is corrupt?

Meaning it seems you've created a god that you could control by lording over him the defination of 'omni-benevolent/all loving' and try and threaten him with your abandonment of your faith and through your attempt to strip him of the title God, just because you can't wrap your mind around the concept of Hell..

What if.. God is a little bigger than the god or your specific idea of what a 'god' should be?

Is he as God subject to your standards, your rules?

[Drich]

You may not understand this but there is a vast difference between the God described by the bible, and the god who has been created by the religions of men.

"You may not understand this but there is a vast difference between the god described by the crayon, and the god who has been created by the religions of men."

They are exactly the same thing.  All gods are created by man and no gods exist.

Actually they are not.

99% of all religion points to itself as being the only 'true' form of Faith. While the NT adapts faith to fit an individual. Infact there are numerous extra biblical doctrine and beliefs about Christianity that religion has created that can be found no where in the bible at all. Which again points to a vast difference between religious belief and bible based belief.

The example of an omni max god is one such difference.

[Drich]

The way I interpret it is this: either Hell is a separation from god, destroying his omnipresence, OR god is present even in Hell. If the latter is the case, this means that God watches and observes the billions in Hell burning and crying and writhing in agony, without taking action to save them. Which by extension means that God is either a) not all-loving, as he will not save those experiencing eternal pain and suffering, or b) he cannot act, thus making him not all-powerful.

Or again, God is not Omni max, but Alpha and Omega as He Himself is recorded describing Himself as, and as such can do whatever he pleases and is not bound by the definations the omni max God is.

[Divinity]

That's... Ironic.

You assume you get a say in defining who and what God should be. You have created a God who can not send anyone to Hell, you've tested this God found Him not to exist, and become an 'atheist.' Yet you hold on to the idea that you get to define who and what God is supposed to be.

I don't know, but what if...

God is nothing you can imagine on your own... What if you and you friends are wrong and God is a little more complex that what man can make up, and does indeed allow people to goto Hell if they so choose. IDK again, but what if your idea of God and who and what God is supposed to be from the very beginning is what is corrupt?

Meaning it seems you've created a god that you could control by lording over him the defination of 'omni-benevolent/all loving' and try and threaten him with your abandonment of your faith and through your attempt to strip him of the title God, just because you can't wrap your mind around the concept of Hell..

What if.. God is a little bigger than the god or your specific idea of what a 'god' should be?

Is he as God subject to your standards, your rules?

If God is as he is described in your bible, then he's a pathetic little fuck who should have his Casper ass fucked by a rusty rake.  He's a vengeful pathetic piece of shit undeserving of worship or love.  If this is god, then he's not God worth worshiping.  Being absent from him would be a reward not a punishment.

Of course you never take a moment to consider that your bible is just full of shit, and you're the one that's wrong and that God doesn't just happen to fit and agree with all the beliefs you happen to have.

[Drich]

To me it just shows that they haven't really thought about it (whatever 'it' is) and really don't want to either. It's just a way for them to make themselves feel superior to believers. They pretend that atheism is the only rational approach then proceed to put their stupidity on display.

I think you are right we can't really think about  (whatever 'it' is)? The interpretations are so vast, not only against all the different Christian denominations, but also against all the interpretations across the ages, which is 2000 years just for the New Testament 

Even if I decided to try and learn all the denominations, sub denominations and then all the personal beliefs intertwined, by the time I had got anywhere the interpretations would have changed again to pander to new more inquiring minds to try keep the fairy stories going.

It really doesn't matter what the fiction book you believe in states as the church's adapt begrudgingly anytime one of the falsies  loses enough traction to threaten the collection box.

It seems God doesn't speak to the preachers but the bank manager.

Dog

Your objection is only valid if and only if you presuppose that there is only One true version of Christianity to be had.

When if Fact all Jesus Christ centered religions find themselves with a measure of merrit. Look at the NT and how it was written, compared to what the Jews had.. In the OT there was on set of rules one High preist one and only one way of doing things. If there was only supposed to be one form of Christianity then why didn't Christians Get a solid book of law like the Jews did? Why do each book of the NT speak to different social structures differently? Why are the Romans told something different than the Galatians or the Ephesians?

The answer is very simple. We Were never meant to be like the Jews religious structure, Paul describes us as different members of the same body. Meaning our different body part all look and have different functions, but unite and work together as one body. We have one (or two depending on how you look at it) rule binding us all together. Love our lord God with all that we are and our neighbor as our selves. In doing so we full fill All of the law. Now how we do that will vary from person to person as we are different. Hence the need for different Jesus Christ centered churches. After all why do you think we have books named after different churches/different regions, and the reason why they were told different things? Because Paul in romans was training "hands" and in Galatians Training legs, and Ephesian Training eyes. Again, same body, different parts.

[Drich]

Since the dawn of time, people knew that the sun existed without knowing that it was essentially a nuclear explosion contained by gravity.

Exactly and there are things today that we can observe and have no answer for.  However, we cannot observe god, because god does not exist.

I can study and test entanglement, but it defies what we know of physics and relativity for now.  I can study and observe particle/wave duality, but there is no clear answer for now.  I can test for dark matter and dark energy, but again, there is no clear answer for now.

I cannot see, study, test, observe god.  I cannot see, study, test, observe interactions of god.  Why?  Because it is a fairy tale dude.  You keep talking about proof, evidence, logic and yet, nothing has shown god to exist.

The only way a god can exist is in the minds and writings of the deluded.  No where else can god be seen or observed.

A real god cannot exist because what it would take to allow such a being to exist would negate it from the start.

So you think that everything in this universe can be currently be studied, observed, and interacted with. That everything knowable can currently be identified by our current scientific understandings???

What foolishness. If this is the case then you have just raised the wall/limits of your understanding to all that is currently known. that nothing outside of your little method of understanding can ever be expored if it does not fit your specific defination.

Does your methods of acknowledgement allow for any other than you small mind world view?/are you allowed to explore the universe around you even if it excees your current comfortable methods of exploration?

[Drich]

If god as real, there would be no need for faith.

Faith is the theist's excuse to believe in defiance of reality.

Indeed. that is why so little of it is required for the proof He offers in the way of the Holy Spirit.

(Faith of a mustard seed.)