Atheism and Purpose

[Edward the Theist]

That's a very eloquent post. Thank you for writing it on my behalf. It sounds like the Book of Ecclesiastes in the Bible. But if you're right, happiness is impossible because life and consciousness and the formation of a person who could write what you just did is a waste. We become aware, we go extinct. Actually, only a god could be that cruel to us.

But I do believe we cease to exist when we die. The difference, I would argue, is that we cease to exist the same way we ceased to exist as a small child.

For instance, I had a memory yesterday of something I said to my mother when I was five. I remembered it clearly for some reason, and it struck me that the person who said that to my mother was not the same person remembering it. The boy had ceased to exist a long time ago.

As for purpose, I would concede that it may not be possible to willfully follow a purpose in life. We have a purpose, each and everyone of us, but it comes to us automatically and deterministically. Some people are born for the prison yard, some people cure polio.

But you're here today, and tomorrow is a new day. So stop being so damned depressing, have a drink, read a book, look up at the stars, and life your life.

I don't find it depressing at all. I'm surprised you do. What I stated above is a simple first implication of atheism: determinism.

You talk about choices people make--what choices? You talk about the insult of human suffering, why? We are born, we live, we die, we cease to be as if we never were. The suffering means nothing. The happiness means nothing. We live, we breed, we die. There is no purpose because there is no Creator. Any purpose we invent, whether we are conscious of the fact or not, is simply part of the deterministic universe we live in, and that determinism is based on chaos and natural selection.

You seem to think atheism can create a better world for people--how is it going to do that? Eventually, we will see that human rights are unnecessary in the scheme of things, and we will come to eat the weak. Because no one is special, and we will have no reason to believe they are. We will eventually become lower than the animals, we will literally see ourselves and each other as only matter. Like George Orwell said in his book, 1984, and I paraphrase, "If you want to know the future, imagine a boot stomping on a human face forever."

For the record, I don't believe in heaven. When we die, we cease to exist But in that moment, we cease to exist because we return to (and I apologize at this time I have no better term for it) a primordial conscious/eternity. We cease to exist but it probably feels like a great white light that welcomes us to the utter fullness of our being. Some people think of it as heaven, but it's really the necessary primordial monistic state (maybe that's a better term).

So, you see, I'm not depressed at all.

[Tiberius]

To the people who think I'm an idiot and incapable of critical thinking. I hope you don't expect me to respond to your questions from here on out. I find your insults hypocritical to say the least, as you have begged me to be hyper-respectful of you and your opinions and your beliefs.

Nobody has begged you to be hyper-respectful. However, when you go around saying things about atheists that are patently untrue, and say these things as if they are fact, you are going to annoy a lot of people. This is a discussion community; we discuss things. Instead of making wild assertions about something you clearly know nothing about, why not ask us what we believe? Don't paint all of us with the same brush.

As for these reputation points. If they are meant to be a way you can all get together and ban me from your group after I collect enough of them, by all means just do it now. I think it's pathetic, but I'm actually a little proud of being in the red.

Reputation points have no effect on the likelihood of being banned. You shouldn't be proud of being in the red; it means you have acted in a way that has made people have a disapproving attitude towards you. Most theists who come here get along well with us because they don't try to tell us what we believe.

Actually, I fully expect to be banned. I don't know why you'd want me in here anyway. It used to be all about debate, there were MSN groups like atheists vs. God, etc., and it was all about the argument. As the years have gone by, it seems more and more that popular atheism, or neo-atheism has become like a religion and a church all on its own. It even has mega-pastors like Richard Dawkins, Bill Maher and the like. Even this group takes in donations now. It used to be about the debate, but the dogmatic nature of neo-atheism, the intollerance, the anger, the attacks, the cause, and even the basically left-wing morality has become a kind of fundamentalism.

I don't think any of us here consider Dawkins & Maher as pastors. I certainly don't like Dawkins' books on atheism, and I think Maher is a fool for his various positions on medicine. We take donations because this is a popular forum, and I cannot afford the server costs on my own. None of the donations go to any person; they go towards renting the server.

Philosophies tend to turn into religions after awhile. Atheism was a philosophy, now it's much more like a religion. The Christians had a fish, the atheists have geek-chic glasses. The Christians had baptism, atheists have tatoos. Christians had Billy Graham; atheists have Richard Dawkins.

I don't have geek-chic glasses. I don't have tattoos. I don't consider Dawkins a "good" thing for the atheist movement. Does that mean I'm not an atheist? No. I'm an atheist because I don't believe in gods. QED.

I can't get into a Christian forum anymore with my ideas. They ban me instantly--no question. Over the years, the atheists have become less and less tolerant as well.

Have we banned you yet? No. You haven't broken any rules yet. Follow the rules, start treating people with respect (starting with not telling people what they believe, and instead asking them what they believe), and you'll do fine here.

So, fire your reputation points. Break your own rules with your insults--no different than Christians do.

We don't have a rule against insults. Insults are allowed on this board. They aren't recommended of course.

[downbeatplumb]

I suspect Edward is trying to see how long it takes to get banned, either to brag to his theist chums or just for yucks.

I dont think he believes any of the shit he's posting.

Am I right Edward.

[Ace Otana]

I think it's pathetic, but I'm actually a little proud of being in the red.
[Seconds later.....]

To the people who think I'm an idiot and incapable of critical thinking. I hope you don't expect me to respond to your questions from here on out.

What makes you think that I expected any sensible discussion to come from you?
Personally I think you're a time waster.

[SleepingDemon]

Why ban him anyway? He isn't being overly aggressive or blatantly insulting anyway, well, no more than people who post here do anyway. I rather enjoy him retreating back to a very narrow position, it's like whackamole.

[Nitsuj]

I must say, this site is quite lax when it comes to banning. On nohomers.net, if you act stupid like this guy, you get one warning, and then BAM! You're outta there.

[Minimalist]

You have to be a real asshole to get banned from here. Adrian has a slow hook but that's good. You cannot make a pearl without an irritant...and man, some of these jesus freaks are real irritating.

[Tiberius]

We could ban every annoying and irritating person that comes here, but that usually leads to them either returning and trying to register again, causing even more bans (and it's a pain for the staff), or they go somewhere else and try the same tactics.

Either way, I'd much rather try and change their beliefs (or at least their approach to discussing things with those of the opposing view) than kick them out as soon as we sense some kind of anti-social behaviour.

[ssmutters]

I don't think any of us here consider Dawkins & Maher as pastors. I certainly don't like Dawkins' books on atheism, and I think Maher is a fool for his various positions on medicine.

I don't consider Dawkins a "good" thing for the atheist movement.

(a little off-topic)

Adrian, I became a full fledged atheist after reading The God Delusion and Letter to a Christian Nation. Now, it's interesting to hear that you consider Richard Dawkins may not be so good for atheism after all. I am interested in knowing your reasons for thinking Dawkins is not good for atheism. I am also thinking of buying some atheism books from this site, so whom would you suggest? - ss

[Minimalist]

You seem to think atheism can create a better world for people

That's your baggage, pal. Not mine.

Atheism means one thing. There is no evidence for any god...including yours. I don't think that will make a better world....and neither will praying to your phantom.