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UK Brexit, questions from an American
#11
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
I'd like to secede from the rest of my country.

How are we supposed to make up our mind when the argument from both sides has devolved into (to quote Heinlein) "... the yammering unceasing lies of shrewd and evil and self-serving men".
The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than that a drunken man is happier than a sober one. ~ George Bernard Shaw
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#12
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
(June 16, 2016 at 6:26 am)Dystopia Wrote: That was the original idea... But... It's not working that well. Poorer states continue poorer and the EU organizations are dominated by the most powerful (economically and politically) states like Germany, France, etc.[...]

Wait... What? The "brexiters" trumpet all the time about UK being no 5 economy in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co..._(nominal)
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/inv...nomies.asp)

and you're telling me, that it can't have its voice heard in the EU, because it's not powerful enough?....
LOL... Well - which is it?

It's just bullsh*t, IMHO. Xenophobia is in fashion right now, thanks to ISIS and such, so the nationalistic politicians have been able to grab the opportunity, stir the paranoia and become visible again.

Yeah - I keep hearing about excessive immigration and stuff and yet every London restaurant I've worked in for the past 10 years has been desperate for kitchen staff, to the point where they pay £500-£1000 to anyone, that will recommend a friend to work there for 3 months. Where are those hordes of migrant workers from EU, looking to steal the jobs... that the native Brits evidently don't want to do?
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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#13
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
(June 16, 2016 at 7:06 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote:
(June 16, 2016 at 6:26 am)Dystopia Wrote: That was the original idea... But... It's not working that well. Poorer states continue poorer and the EU organizations are dominated by the most powerful (economically and politically) states like Germany, France, etc.[...]

Wait... What? The "brexiters" trumpet all the time about UK being no 5 economy in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co..._(nominal)
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/inv...nomies.asp)

and you're telling me, that it can't have its voice heard in the EU, because it's not powerful enough?....
LOL... Well - which is it?

It's just bullsh*t, IMHO. Xenophobia is in fashion right now, thanks to ISIS and such, so the nationalistic politicians have been able to grab the opportunity, stir the paranoia and become visible again.

Yeah - I keep hearing about excessive immigration and stuff and yet every London restaurant I've worked in for the past 10 years has been desperate for kitchen staff, to the point where they pay £500-£1000 to anyone, that will recommend a friend to work there for 3 months. Where are those hordes of migrant workers from EU, looking to steal the jobs... that the native Brits evidently don't want to do?

I have no idea how things are in the UK except for what I see in the news. I speak as someone from a poorer EU country who feels that in the last decade my country hasn't benefited much from the EU's austerity measures and the euro crisis.

It should be noted that the UK entered the EU with specific conditions and some rules from the EU treaty don't apply to them equally (for example, they have their own currency) - I think this shows beforehand that the UK never had a huge will to enter the EU in the first place. I have no idea how British people feel.


The European comission, which is the EU's most significant and powerful institution is moved primarily by economic variables, namely corporations (like it happens everywhere else in the world) - Which is strongly connected with Europe's strongest economies.

About immigrants, I have no idea how British people feel, really - I just speak as someone form a poorer country - People are tired of austerity, shitty minimum wage jobs and the same politicians over and over and over again. I think Europe is in a crisis but it's just not an economic/financial one, it's a cultural/political/social crisis. 

Hopefully it will all be fixed in the future.

BTW, it should be noted Brexiters do mention how strong the UK's economy is but as an argument to support brexit.
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#14
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
(June 16, 2016 at 6:38 am)abaris Wrote:
(June 16, 2016 at 6:26 am)Dystopia Wrote: That was the original idea... But... It's not working that well. Poorer states continue poorer and the EU organizations are dominated by the most powerful (economically and politically) states like Germany, France, etc.

You don't know much on how the voting system of the European council and the commission works, do you? Surprisingly so, since it's in the public domain and an interested party would have looked up the information already.

Actually, I spent a year studying a subject called "European Law" - It was mandatory in second year of law school - Do I remember everything I studied? Certainly no - It has been something like two years or more, but I do remember reaching the conclusion that in the midst of all the institutions the European comission holds the greatest power. On top of that - And I presume you know this - The European comission isn't directly elected by the people at all. This tells us something. To say that countries like Greece hold the same influence on the European institutions like Germany or France is, in my opinion, a foolish idea. 

For me this isn't about how others are doing - I'm expecting decent results and hope for a bright future for myself as a young person. If I look around me and what I see is unemployment and other things that will make my life harder to the point I've consider immigration, then I have no reason to trust the institution that allegedly is in charge of improving my country (and others') economic and social conditions
Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you

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#15
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
(June 16, 2016 at 7:06 am)Homeless Nutter Wrote: Wait... What? The "brexiters" trumpet all the time about UK being no 5 economy in the world (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co..._(nominal)
http://www.investopedia.com/articles/inv...nomies.asp)

and you're telling me, that it can't have its voice heard in the EU, because it's not powerful enough?....
LOL... Well - which is it?

Saw much the same from the unionists in the Scottish referendum debate. The argument would be that an independent Scotland wouldn't gain entry into the EU but also simultaneously that they shouldn't care about being independent because we're all now part of the EU.

These same unionists are now arguing about remaining or leaving the EU. The Remain camp warn that leaving could break up the UK as Scotland would have another referendum and vote to stay in the EU. The Leave camp ignore this fact and don't take into account that the UK's so called mighty economy also includes major contributions from Scotland.

I think both sides are using fear mongering as their main tactic because it seemed to work so well for the unionists in the Scottish referendum.
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#16
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
(June 16, 2016 at 7:59 am)Dystopia Wrote: I have no idea how things are in the UK except for what I see in the news. I speak as someone from a poorer EU country who feels that in the last decade my country hasn't benefited much from the EU's austerity measures and the euro crisis.

It should be noted that the UK entered the EU with specific conditions and some rules from the EU treaty don't apply to them equally (for example, they have their own currency) - I think this shows beforehand that the UK never had a huge will to enter the EU in the first place. I have no idea how British people feel.
[...]

The British don't want to leave EU, because EU hasn't been useful up until now. They want to leave EU (well - those that do want to leave, anyway), because they wish to abandon what they perceive as a sinking ship, due to financial problems of member countries, like Greece, admission to the union of many poorer countries, like Eastern Europe ones, as well as the influx of muslim refugees.

Essentially - EU was fine and dandy as long as it was a somewhat elitist organization, helping the members to isolate themselves from the poorer parts of Europe. Now, that most of Europe is in the "club", it doesn't seem as convenient, profitable and prestigious anymore, so the idea of quitting it, "while ahead" has gained a lot of momentum - especially, that the nationalistic elements in British politics have been attaining popularity at the same time.

And of course the right-wingers hate EU, because the whole idea of integrated Europe was supposed to be an "antidote" for nationalism, that ruined most of Europe during WWII. But WWII was a long time ago and people are not scared of the next Hitler anymore. What they are scared of is poor people.
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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#17
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
I agree that fear mongering is rampant.
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#18
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
(June 16, 2016 at 8:12 am)Mathilda Wrote: [...]I think both sides are using fear mongering as their main tactic because it seemed to work so well for the unionists in the Scottish referendum.

Of course. Both sides are using fear, because at the end of the day, in or out of EU UK is going to be fine, for the most part. It's just a game of politics and ideology, on the outcome of which many politicians are planning to build their careers...
"The fact that a believer is happier than a skeptic is no more to the point than the fact that a drunken man is happier than a sober one." - George Bernard Shaw
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#19
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
What's the upshot to leaving.  What will change for the UK?
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#20
RE: UK Brexit, questions from an American
(June 16, 2016 at 8:12 am)Mathilda Wrote: I think both sides are using fear mongering as their main tactic because it seemed to work so well for the unionists in the Scottish referendum.

Most people don't bother asking the complicated questions and to inform themselves. In this day and age, fear is omnipresent. The fear of losing ones livelihood most prominent among them. I'm not free of these fears either. The question is what you make of them. I'm not willing to be exploited by political fearmongers and their scapegoatery. The culprits of my predicament aren't refugees or the big bad EU. They are my own failed decisions and the crumbling economy.

In case of the EU it gets ludicrous when the same politicians, right after having a cozy meeting at Brussels, return home and start to blame the EU for decisions they had made. They are the EU, after all. In many cases it takes an unanimous vote from all member states to pass some ground changing law. So they raised their paws too when it came to make a decision.

Again, people don't ask. Such as, what were you doing at Brussels? They just buy the narrative of some evil overlord structure raping it's poor members.
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