The "Cultural Context" Excuse

[The Grand Nudger]

I don't know how it happened.  I'm not much of a believer in the general bud.

You, otoh, do believe that abiogenesis occurred, you're just a little unclear on what it is.

I mean sure, you may surprise me by saying another silly thing whose consequences you haven't prepared for, and claim that god is a living creature of some sort....but I'd advise against it.

[Huggy Bear]

I don't know how it happened.  I'm not much of a believer in the general bud.

You, otoh, do believe that abiogenesis occurred, you're just a little unclear on what it is.

I mean sure, you may surprise me by saying another silly thing whose consequences you haven't prepared for, and claim that god is a living creature of some sort....but I'd advise against it.

But you clearly believe abiogenesis has occurred.

You would think that a person would familiarize themselves with reality before arguing against it.  When observations do not match the model it is nearly always the fault of the model.  Most of our observations of the world around us do not support the christian concept of god, they do support things like "the big bang", abiogenesis, and evolution.  Refine your model christian, its showing it's age.

*emphasis mine*
But you're totally fine with not being able to explain it.

But for some reason you want me to go into further explanations when I already stated I don't know anymore than what's in the bible...

This is what makes you a hypocrite.

You can cry about what I believe not being demonstrable, when you can't prove your own beliefs.

[Whateverist]

Oh, so you don't believe life occurred through abiogenesis? Also, clearly I don't believe in abiogenesis buddy.

You know, "belief" in abiogenesis by atheists is a whole different animal than "belief" as practiced by Christians.  For you guys, isn't belief a mixture of hope and conviction as much as anything else?  For me, and I imagine most atheists, belief is just a by product of what we think there is better reason for thinking.  Of course, like Christians we all can become invested in our pet theories.  But when it comes to abiogenesis, there just isn't anything riding on it.  

For those of us who reject 'the supernatural' as the logically challenged category that it is, then something like abiogenesis is the only theory left standing.  Well some find interest in panspermia, but for others of us that just kicks the can down the road.  Without magic, the inorganic/organic threshold just has to get crossed naturally, i.e. abiogenesis.  Admittedly no one has been able to show conclusively that any particular set of conditions will get it done, though some complex molecules of use to life have been produced this way.  But then, atheism doesn't pretend to offer answers to every conceivable question.

[The Grand Nudger]

"You believe in "x"..so I don't have to explain my claims!"

-Actually I don't, that'd be you, again....and it doesn't get you off the hook anyway.

"Yes you do, you have to, I -need- you to......."



The snakeman strikes again.

[Huggy Bear]

Oh, so you don't believe life occurred through abiogenesis? Also, clearly I don't believe in abiogenesis buddy.

You know, "belief" in abiogenesis by atheists is a whole different animal than "belief" as practiced by Christians.  For you guys, isn't belief a mixture of hope and conviction as much as anything else?  For me, and I imagine most atheists, belief is just a by product of what we think there is better reason for thinking.  Of course, like Christians we all can become invested in our pet theories.  But when it comes to abiogenesis, there just isn't anything riding on it.  

For those of us who reject 'the supernatural' as the logically challenged category that it is, then something like abiogenesis is the only theory left standing.  Well some find interest in panspermia, but for others of us that just kicks the can down the road.  Without magic, the inorganic/organic threshold just has to get crossed naturally, i.e. abiogenesis.  Admittedly no one has been able to show conclusively that any particular set of conditions will get it done, though some complex molecules of use to life have been produced this way.  

I see no difference in the context of trust...

I place my trust in the Bible.

You place your trust in the explanation of science.

I didn't write the bible, neither did you come up with the theory of abiogenesis, we are instead both placing faith in someone else's word.

But then, atheism doesn't pretend to offer answers to every conceivable question.

Neither does Christianity outside of the bible, and even that is a mystery.

[The Grand Nudger]

You placed your trust in the bible, which said we were human serpent hybrids.  Turns out we aren't.

[Whateverist]

You know, "belief" in abiogenesis by atheists is a whole different animal than "belief" as practiced by Christians.  For you guys, isn't belief a mixture of hope and conviction as much as anything else?  For me, and I imagine most atheists, belief is just a by product of what we think there is better reason for thinking.  Of course, like Christians we all can become invested in our pet theories.  But when it comes to abiogenesis, there just isn't anything riding on it.  

For those of us who reject 'the supernatural' as the logically challenged category that it is, then something like abiogenesis is the only theory left standing.  Well some find interest in panspermia, but for others of us that just kicks the can down the road.  Without magic, the inorganic/organic threshold just has to get crossed naturally, i.e. abiogenesis.  Admittedly no one has been able to show conclusively that any particular set of conditions will get it done, though some complex molecules of use to life have been produced this way.  

I see no difference in the context of trust...

I place my trust in the Bible.

You place your trust in the explanation of science.

I don't think that is really parallel.  I don't believe in abiogenesis because I trust science will one day show how that transition occurred.  There just isn't any natural alternative and logically I reject 'the supernatural', and that has nothing to do with science.

I didn't write the bible, neither did you come up with the theory of abiogenesis, we are instead both placing faith in someone else's word.

Definitely not.  For me it isn't a question of authority.  It is just a question of making sense, and to me 'the supernatural' just doesn't.

But then, atheism doesn't pretend to offer answers to every conceivable question.

Neither does Christianity outside of the bible, and even that is a mystery.

For the record I find plenty of mystery in the world, and mystery doesn't trouble me.  But for me, mystery doesn't have a 'Twilight Zone' connotation.  I assume that that which is mysterious is also natural.  Doesn't mean it'll make sense to me, but of course it would be natural.  What else could it be .. for me.  I realize of course that you have another alternative you keep open and that is your prerogative.  We just have to disagree over that stuff.  (Doesn't mean I won't eat your smoked salmon .. I mean, if you had any extra.)

[Whateverist]

Oh, the reason I've been so slow to respond is I've been playing some high stakes funny money poker online.  That's over.  I won.  (Naturally.)



If I croak and learn you had it right, I'll challenge Peter to a game of poker.  (That always works.)

[Huggy Bear]

I see no difference in the context of trust...

I place my trust in the Bible.

You place your trust in the explanation of science.

I don't think that is really parallel.  I don't believe in abiogenesis because I trust science will one day show how that transition occurred.  There just isn't any natural alternative and logically I reject 'the supernatural', and that has nothing to do with science.

I didn't write the bible, neither did you come up with the theory of abiogenesis, we are instead both placing faith in someone else's word.

Definitely not.  For me it isn't a question of authority.  It is just a question of making sense, and to me 'the supernatural' just doesn't.

Neither does Christianity outside of the bible, and even that is a mystery.

For the record I find plenty of mystery in the world, and mystery doesn't trouble me.  But for me, mystery doesn't have a 'Twilight Zone' connotation.  I assume that that which is mysterious is also natural.  Doesn't mean it'll make sense to me, but of course it would be natural.  What else could it be .. for me.  I realize of course that you have another alternative you keep open and that is your prerogative.  We just have to disagree over that stuff.  (Doesn't mean I won't eat your smoked salmon .. I mean, if you had any extra.)

When you state that you "reject the supernatural" you essentially are saying that you reject anything that is undetectable with your 5 senses.  Aren't the  senses a product of the natural? If the senses are a product of the natural, then all they can perceive is the natural.

You see the natural, you touch the natural, you hear the natural, you taste the natural, and you smell the natural.

So anything that is undetectable to any of those natural senses don't exist?

You guys ask for proof of "supernatural" (I'll refer to it as the "spiritual" from now on), but how exactly am I to do that when you are not willing to use your spiritual sense?

How would you explain that natural world exists to a person that was devoid of the natural senses? How would you prove the color blue exists to someone that couldn't see?

The only way one has of detecting the spiritual realm is his spirit, and faith is the "spiritual sense", and to the christian it's the "true" sense, the sense that takes preeminence over all the others, hence we "walk by faith not by sight".

So where you reject everything that doesn't agree with the natural, a christian rejects everything that doesn't agree with the spiritual.

[The Grand Nudger]

Our spiritual sense?  You mean my third eye?  My pineal gland?  What?  Is that heritable...and did we get it from our human ancestors or our serpent ancestors?  Oh, I see..."faith"...

You mean I'll see it if I really, really believe it...and a christian rejects everything that doesn't agree with what they believe in?  Of that I have no doubt, lol.