Mother and son in New Mexico face jail time for incestuous relationship

[SteelCurtain]

There is a reason the vast majority of people don't want to have sex with relatives. It wouldn't be biologically advantageous in a population, therefore we have an aversion to it.

Just like any other issue, wires can get crossed.

[Alex K]

I would be interested to see what would happen if incest between consenting adults was made fully legal.

My guess is that not much would happen. I doubt people would suddenly be doing it any more than they already do.

Yes, I don't think much would happen either. There's only one problem I see - parents can have overwhelming psychological control over their children even when they are of age, and in such incestuous relationships it could be difficult to disentangle if they are really consensual. Of course, this kind of psychological pressuring occurs in regular relationships as well, so it's probably not a convincing reason.

[Thumpalumpacus]

My view regarding incest is, I don't care about it as long as its between adults and they don't have kids.

'Cause yuk and ew is not an argument. It's a reaction. And we don't run society on those.

You are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine. I guess some of us just posses more common sense than others in that regard. There is a reason why we humans are not attracted to our own kin. Are these two consenting adults? Sure. Doesn't make it right though. She's still of child bearing age. Suppose she accidentally gets pregnant? Then what? You are aware that people don't always use protection, right?

But that's not even the point. This woman gave birth to this kid. He came out of her. In who's actual fucking right mind thinks the two of them having sex with each other is normal by any means? It's not. You may not like my opinion, and you may not agree with it, but I'm okay with that. It's not about me or you. It's about the fact that in this country, incest is against the law and they broke the law. And yes, what they did with each other IS gross.

I don't think the purpose of the law is to regulate what's normal or what's yucky, but rather, what's harmful.

As disgusting as I personally find this sort of thing, the law, the government doesn't exist to enforce my values upon others.

I can see the legitimacy of TJRF's argument, and think that "position of power" dynamics is a decent (if perhaps a tad subjective) standard.

But "most of us think it's gross" is not to my mind adequate justification. Gross as I might consider incest, I don't think that the government should be in the business of enforcing my values -- or those of anyone else, for that matter.

[Joods]

You are welcome to your opinion and I am welcome to mine. I guess some of us just posses more common sense than others in that regard. There is a reason why we humans are not attracted to our own kin. Are these two consenting adults? Sure. Doesn't make it right though. She's still of child bearing age. Suppose she accidentally gets pregnant? Then what? You are aware that people don't always use protection, right?

But that's not even the point. This woman gave birth to this kid. He came out of her. In who's actual fucking right mind thinks the two of them having sex with each other is normal by any means? It's not. You may not like my opinion, and you may not agree with it, but I'm okay with that. It's not about me or you. It's about the fact that in this country, incest is against the law and they broke the law. And yes, what they did with each other IS gross.

But your argument, once again, is 'ew yuck.' It is the same argument that Christians use about gay sex, and not one that should restrict grown adults from doing as they please so long as there isn't a victimization taking place.

This case is right in that wheelhouse. He never met the woman until he was already 18. I think it's gross, but I also think some extreme BDSM is gross.

"ewwww" isn't an argument, for starters. It was never intended to be an argument. It was MY fleeting response on the subject of incest. That is all. Furthermore, you, yourself, even admit that it's gross. So how is that any different than my one word reply of "ewwww"?

I would love for anyone here to please point out in my first post, where I said anything else besides "Um..... ewwww" and how that is to be misread as anything, especially when one tries to compare it to something totally unrelated. Wow. The imaginations that run wild here are simply amazing.

It's sad that I even had to make a second post in this thread to begin with. I really didn't want to further my initial post, but I was not going to stand for people making crap up that I didn't even say, so yes, in my second post, I furthered my thoughts on the subject, briefly.

But since you're looking for discussion here we go:

Gay sex is not going to result in a possible biological child being born. This is not a gay issue, so let's not compare apples to oranges here.

Instead, let's talk about what is relevant. Inbreeding as a possible result of the carelessness of two immediate family members of the opposite sex, having sex. So let's look at that.**Disclaimer** This is but one scenario. I do not have the time nor the desire to list Everything that could possibly happen or go wrong in any given situation. I am merely drawing from knowledge of what I have personally seen from the last 20 years of interacting with Amish people, since I live within a reasonable distance from their community and I see them on a daily basis.


The Amish were mentioned and rightfully so here. I live in an area of my state where the Amish are seen all the time. They are not some rare species that only comes out at night or anything, despite not wanting their pictures taken etc. If you go to the Hershey Children's Hospital, you will find many of them there with their kids, seeing specialists. The fact that they are a small, close-knit society but they come out in droves to take their kids to see specialists, should be something to look at vs the population of an area as a whole, that has non-Amish people. The incidences of an Amish person needing to see a specialist, is much higher.  One can only guess why that is, but again, even though it's a variable, it's only just a guess.

There is a lot of inbreeding done in the Amish community. They don't allow outsiders to become Amish. Families have to find some way of keeping the generations going, especially when an Amish teen reaches their 18th birthday and is allowed to experience the world for a year. Should they decide not to come back, they are not ever allowed to come back. They are removed from the Amish community for good. If you've ever talked with them, they have distinct physical features, distinct speech patterns (no, not dialect), many have speech problems, heart problems and other congenital defects that are passed down or created by the inbreeding situation.

Inbreeding affects society despite people saying in this thread that it does not. Here is your example: it affects the Amish community (which is a part of society). Furthermore, inbreeding need not have to affect all four corners of the earth to affect society. If there is an impact in a community, it's affecting THAT part of society. So for anyone saying incest doesn't affect society, they have obviously never had to deal with an Amish family bringing "everyone in the immediate family" to the Children's ward of a hospital, where upwards of 40 of them were camped out in the large family room at the end of one of the hallways.

How did that impact society you ask? Other families had to leave because there was no room for them. They could not stay close to their children because the lounge was full up with Amish people. The hospital did nothing to help the other parents. I was lucky and, like a few others, got to room in with my daughter since she had a private room, but my ex, had to leave and drive 50 miles back home because there was no room for him to sleep in the parent/family lounge. Inbreeding: Because, you know - Uncle grandpa just had to be there.

So along with inbreeding, comes the issues of a child developing health problems stemming from DNA issues. I'm not a doctor and I don't know what all the problems are. There could be infinite ones for all we know. I do know, based on what I have seen while taking my own child up to the Children's hospital for years, is many Amish are seen in the waiting rooms of Pediatric cardiologists, Feeding clinics, Speech specialists, INT specialists, Endocrinology, Gastroenterology, etc. If you look at this particular society, as a whole, many of their offspring are needing to see more and more specialists. Is that because of DNA and inbreeding? Possibly. One could probably research it if they wanted to since Hershey is a teaching hospital, they most likely have records of studies done somewhere.

What I'm saying "ewwww" at is thought of a parent, having sex with their own child. And some here have agreed with my second post on that. That is where it should have ended, but, people read way more into my first reply in this thread and developed whatever thoughts about my one word, that they wanted to and essentially told me I was wrong for that. My initial post wasn't intended to cause discussion. It was intended to show how I, personally, felt about the situation. Period. My reply of "ewwww" has no bearing on anything else. Especially with regards to laws or whether or not it's right. I didn't write the laws, whether or not I agree with them or think they will be effective. I didn't say I agreed with jail time. I simply said "ewww". Where everyone is getting more out of that one word, is beyond me. I have not judged anyone here for having a differing of opinion. I have also not read anymore into anyone else's post than what they intended. Try to have the same consideration for mine.

If you want to have a meaningful discussion with me about the DNA or the health issues that stem as a result of incest, great. I'm all for that. But I really don't appreciate people making up crap out of thin air over one freaking word and assuming I'm talking about the laws, or gay sex or comparing me to what a theist thinks about gay sex or essentially relaying the opinion that because I said "ewwww", that I must be making some sort of an argument. Stahp with that mess. Sticking ideas and thoughts in people's posts when they didn't write those thoughts and ideas to begin with, is really, bad form. That goes for everyone. Not just one person.

[Aoi Magi]

Unlike many of you, I don't find it gross from the man's perspective, simply because the man met the woman after a long time, after being given up as a child and "biological mother" doesn't always stir the same emotions as a parent does who actually raised the child and formed those bonds. From the mother's perspective it does feel weird though..

My view on this is pretty much the same as gay couples, that is, how two consenting adults choose to love each other is nobody else's damn business.

[GrandizerII]

A guy I worked for in Indiana is married to his cousin. They have three kids. I don't know how closely they're related, but his wife's maiden name is the same as his mother's.

In the culture I'm from, cousin marriage is common-practice.

I would never get involved sexually with a cousin, though.

[FatAndFaithless]

*Shrugs* I think I'm in agreement with most folks here. If it's between two consenting adults, it's none of my business, regardless of my visceral reaction to it.

Two notes though: As has been mentioned in this thread, the power dynamic situation between a parent and child is something that I might have reservations about (with the possibility of 'grooming' a child for something once they hit 18, etc). That would be my only hang-up when it comes to parent-offspring relations. Secondly, the 'as long as they don't have children of their own' caveat is ridiculous. There are plenty of unrelated couples in the world that are genetically predisposed to have children with all sorts of mutations/disabilities and we don't do anything to regulate their breeding lives. Unless someone wants to enact a law regulating every breeding pair that might have some genetic defect in their children, reserving it specifically for related people seems silly and unnecessary.

[Divinity]

If it's between two consenting adults, I think it should be legal. Yeah, 'ew' is not a valid reason to make something illegal. Roseanne Barr having sex is 'eww', but we don't ban her from having sex, nor should we. It'd have to be a case-by-case basis to determine if a parent exerted their influence from a position of power to form a relationship with their son or daughter.

I think most parents would be appalled by the idea of having sex with their children. So I don't think legalizing it would make it any more prevalent. As long as there's no harm being done, then nobody should face jail time. Maybe some psychiatric counseling, but not jail time.

[downbeatplumb]

But ok, what do you think about incest between siblings then? Is that wrong for a legitimate reason as well?

I think it's fine, unless it leads to years of war and bloodshed over the Iron Throne

The things they do for love.

[Thumpalumpacus]

"ewwww" isn't an argument, for starters. It was never intended to be an argument. It was MY fleeting response on the subject of incest. That is all. Furthermore, you, yourself, even admit that it's gross. So how is that any different than my one word reply of "ewwww"?

I would love for anyone here to please point out in my first post, where I said anything else besides "Um..... ewwww" and how that is to be misread as anything, especially when one tries to compare it to something totally unrelated. Wow. The imaginations that run wild here are simply amazing.

You yourself say right here that your point is that it "isn't normal":

But that's not even the point. This woman gave birth to this kid. He came out of her. In who's actual fucking right mind thinks the two of them having sex with each other is normal by any means? It's not. You may not like my opinion, and you may not agree with it, but I'm okay with that. It's not about me or you. It's about the fact that in this country, incest is against the law and they broke the law. And yes, what they did with each other IS gross.

[bolding added -- Thump]

In defending your position, you are clearly appealing to the repulsive nature of the relationship in justifying your stance that its illegality is proper. If that is not what you meant, it's no wonder you're being misunderstood, because what you wrote is perfectly clear about why you hold the position you do.

Of course, this is your second post, not your first, which I completely agree with. The problem I have is saying, "ewww, that should be illegal because it's gross/not normal".