Our server costs ~$56 per month to run. Please consider donating or becoming a Patron to help keep the site running. Help us gain new members by following us on Twitter and liking our page on Facebook!
Current time: December 5, 2024, 5:47 am

Thread Rating:
  • 0 Vote(s) - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
#1
Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
I haven't read the book, just a review of it on Sean Carroll's blog. What I'm wondering is how you can reconcile the view of time he argues for with the Andromeda Paradox. I'm sure he knows his stuff, I just don't know how what he's proposing would work.
A Gemma is forever.
Reply
#2
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
Can you quickly summarize what the conflict is in your opinion?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
#3
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
I read the link
Didn't understand a thing
Need explanation for dummies please Sad
Quote:To know yet to think that one does not know is best; Not to know yet to think that one knows will lead to difficulty.
- Lau Tzu

Join me on atheistforums Slack Cool Shades (pester tibs via pm if you need invite) Tongue

Reply
#4
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
(August 12, 2016 at 4:00 am)Alex K Wrote: Can you quickly summarize what the conflict is in your opinion?


It sounds like instead of a four-dimensional, block universe in which the arrow of time is a result of entropy increasing from a low-entropy state, he's arguing for something like presentism. This is from a blurb on the book: "[Smolin] finds that contemporary physics eliminates time. He argues persuasively that any adequate cosmology rests on making time and “NOW” fundamental. Here laws evolve in one universe, and the future is open to unknowable novelty." --Stuart Kauffman

I thought that was incompatible with relativity. According to the Andromeda paradox, the "now" over in the Andromeda galaxy will be different for someone on earth and someone in orbit. I don't see how that could be if there's just one evolving "now."
A Gemma is forever.
Reply
#5
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
(August 12, 2016 at 2:25 pm)Gemini Wrote:
(August 12, 2016 at 4:00 am)Alex K Wrote: Can you quickly summarize what the conflict is in your opinion?


It sounds like instead of a four-dimensional, block universe in which the arrow of time is a result of entropy increasing from a low-entropy state, he's arguing for something like presentism. This is from a blurb on the book: "[Smolin] finds that contemporary physics eliminates time. He argues persuasively that any adequate cosmology rests on making time and “NOW” fundamental. Here laws evolve in one universe, and the future is open to unknowable novelty." --Stuart Kauffman

I thought that was incompatible with relativity. According to the Andromeda paradox, the "now" over in the Andromeda galaxy will be different for someone on earth and someone in orbit. I don't see how that could be if there's just one evolving "now."

Hmmm. I'm sceptical about this entire discussion if it doesn't yield anything testable (and I don't see how it does) - it might just be a discussion of formalism. Does my "now" on Andromeda already exist or not? What does that even mean? What does it mean for the future to exist already, or not.... I can't help but think that the entire discussion might be about something that isn't clearly defined.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
#6
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
(August 12, 2016 at 3:56 pm)Alex K Wrote: Hmmm. I'm sceptical about this entire discussion if it doesn't yield anything testable (and I don't see how it does) - it might just be a discussion of formalism. Does my "now" on Andromeda already exist or not? What does that even mean? What does it mean for the future to exist already, or not.... I can't help but think that the entire discussion might be about something that isn't clearly defined.

That does make more sense to me than the Andromeda paradox. It leaves me wondering how physics constrains our understanding of time though. Given relativity, would it be possible in principle for there to be an omnipresent being (like God) who is simultaneously experiencing events that are occurring in distant galaxies?
A Gemma is forever.
Reply
#7
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
(August 12, 2016 at 7:13 pm)Gemini Wrote:
(August 12, 2016 at 3:56 pm)Alex K Wrote: Hmmm. I'm sceptical about this entire discussion if it doesn't yield anything testable (and I don't see how it does) - it might just be a discussion of formalism. Does my "now" on Andromeda already exist or not? What does that even mean? What does it mean for the future to exist already, or not.... I can't help but think that the entire discussion might be about something that isn't clearly defined.

That does make more sense to me than the Andromeda paradox. It leaves me wondering how physics constrains our understanding of time though. Given relativity, would it be possible in principle for there to be an omnipresent being (like God) who is simultaneously experiencing events that are occurring in distant galaxies?

Yes, sure.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply
#8
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
(August 13, 2016 at 1:28 am)Alex K Wrote:
(August 12, 2016 at 7:13 pm)Gemini Wrote: That does make more sense to me than the Andromeda paradox. It leaves me wondering how physics constrains our understanding of time though. Given relativity, would it be possible in principle for there to be an omnipresent being (like God) who is simultaneously experiencing events that are occurring in distant galaxies?

Yes, sure.

Thanks for answering this for me, by the way. It's been nagging at me for three years now...
A Gemma is forever.
Reply
#9
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
(August 13, 2016 at 1:28 am)Alex K Wrote:
(August 12, 2016 at 7:13 pm)Gemini Wrote: That does make more sense to me than the Andromeda paradox. It leaves me wondering how physics constrains our understanding of time though. Given relativity, would it be possible in principle for there to be an omnipresent being (like God) who is simultaneously experiencing events that are occurring in distant galaxies?

Yes, sure.

Nope.  Might seem like a minor nitpick, but it;s actually pretty relevant...even a -omnipresent- being would have to contend with distance.  So some part of it is experiencing a in y...and another is experiencing b in z...but internally, these two experiences cannot be maintained concurrently..if...for no other reason...than the time it takes a signal  (like a brain wave - or light) to travel between whatever part of it is in y and whatever part of it is in z. Omipresence is silly but a "not even wrong" proposition, omni-experientialism- so far as we can tell-...is demonstrably impossible.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#10
RE: Lee Smolin's "Time Reborn" and the Andromeda Paradox
(August 13, 2016 at 4:59 pm)Rhythm Wrote:
(August 13, 2016 at 1:28 am)Alex K Wrote: Yes, sure.

Nope.  Might seem like a minor nitpick, but it;s actually pretty relevant...even a -omnipresent- being would have to contend with distance.  So some part of it is experiencing a in y...and another is experiencing b in z...but internally, these two experiences cannot be maintained concurrently..if...for no other reason...than the time it takes a signal  (like a brain wave - or light) to travel between whatever part of it is in y and whatever part of it is in z. Omipresence is silly but a "not even wrong" proposition, omni-experientialism- so far as we can tell-...is demonstrably impossible.

If you insist on a being which is bound in its actions and perception to the limitations matter experiences within the spacetime.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition

Reply



Possibly Related Threads...
Thread Author Replies Views Last Post
  Space-Time: The Bopdie Twins: If Space is Expanding Isn't Time Expandin Too? Rhondazvous 14 2109 August 2, 2017 at 8:06 am
Last Post: Rhondazvous
  Past Time Travel: What Paradox? maestroanth 24 5220 February 17, 2017 at 1:02 am
Last Post: The Valkyrie
  Questions about Time, Distance, and Relativity Mudhammam 25 5989 November 11, 2014 at 11:30 pm
Last Post: Mudhammam
  Time and the Speed of Light Mudhammam 43 8147 April 30, 2014 at 11:06 am
Last Post: little_monkey
  EPR Paradox little_monkey 0 708 October 23, 2013 at 9:43 am
Last Post: little_monkey
  The Great Andromeda Galaxy And Friends orogenicman 7 2486 December 7, 2012 at 12:46 pm
Last Post: orogenicman
  Sir Isaac Newton Time life magizines "Greatest scientific thinker of our time" franca 6 6113 October 6, 2012 at 1:48 pm
Last Post: Cyberman
  And about time.. Darwinian 13 3457 December 23, 2011 at 4:20 am
Last Post: Epimethean
  The Speed of Light, Time, and the Bible rjh4 is back 17 13051 August 11, 2010 at 8:52 am
Last Post: rjh4 is back



Users browsing this thread: 3 Guest(s)