Foundation of all Axioms the Axioms of Consciousness

[Angrboda]

Do you agree?

Sure, whatever. Why don't you get to your point?

[fdesilva]

Do you agree?

Sure, whatever.  Why don't you get to your point?

Synapses
When a nerve impulse reached a synapse  it may trigger a synaptic vesicle to be released.  This may need more than one nerve impulse to terminate at the synapse, that is a train of nerve impulse above  some frequency might be needed.
Thus in summary a nerve impulse must ends at a synapse to be subsequently followed by the release of a synaptic vesicle.

Location of events

Given the above nature of nerve impulses and the transmission of neurotransmitters at synapses the following would be true  about their location over time.

Let the Nerve impulses and activity at nerve synapses in the brain at any given time be enclosed in the smallest possible virtual spherical globes( image below).

Then over any length of time these globes  will never intersect.



agree so far?

[I_am_not_mafia]

I would also add that the brain does more than just sends signals between neurons as suggested by #3. Dendritic trees non-linearly sum inputs. Modulators act over a longer time scale than transmitters. Neurons also habituate or become more sensitive depending on history of their firing rate. There are various forms of inhibition too.  Synapses grow stronger or weaker over time by manipulating three variables, no of release vesicle sites, probability of release and strength of signal. We don't know if dendritic spines or glial cells perform any computation or not.

Yes I will get to synapses next

No. My point was that the brain functions more than just by sending signals over synapses. The Bible of Computational Neuroscience is The Biophysics of Computation by Christoph Koch. It's an entire book about the computation that goes on within a single neuron, it's dendrites and axon. A biologically plausible neuron is far more complex than an artificial neural network

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Biophysics-Comp...0195181999

[I_am_not_mafia]

Let the Nerve impulses and activity at nerve synapses in the brain at any given time be enclosed in the smallest possible virtual spherical globes( image below).

Then over any length of time these globes  will never intersect.

The firing of neurotransmitters and neuromodulators has an accumulative effect over time. Neurons have firing rates. Firing rates also have to synchronise.

Neurons can also fire randomly and not have any effect due to inhibition of the post synaptic neuron.

In a word, your description is far too simplistic. It's like saying that a car can be described by nothing more than the rotation of the wheels.

[chimp3]

fdesilva : "All 4 means is that anything that happens in the universe can be given a location in space and time. The GPS coordinates for example.
So in relation to what is happening in my Brain at any give instant in time I can say that there is a nerve impulse located at coordinates x,y,z at 10 am UTC on the 21/9/2016 etc.
I am not saying we need to get the exact locations but rather that nerve impulses etc would have an exact location.
Now for more accepted scientific observation on nerve impulses."

Not trying to complicate your equations but are you taking into account the fact that the earth turns on its own axis at 1040 mph at the equator, the earth orbits the sun at 67,000 mph, and the sun (with us) orbits the Milky Way at 500,000 mph. Seems to me if we were trying to understand the foundation of all axioms the exact location of ones nerve impulses would be important.

[I_am_not_mafia]

fdesilva : "All 4 means is that anything that happens in the universe can be given a location in space and time. The GPS coordinates for example.
So in relation to what is happening in my Brain at any give instant in time I can say that there is a nerve impulse located at coordinates x,y,z at 10 am UTC on the 21/9/2016 etc.
I am not saying we need to get the exact locations but rather that nerve impulses etc would have an exact location.
Now for more accepted scientific observation on nerve impulses."

Not trying to complicate your equations but are you taking into account the fact that the earth turns on its own axis at 1040 mph at the equator, the earth orbits the sun at 67,000 mph, and the sun (with us)  orbits the Milky Way at 500,000 mph. Seems to me if we were trying to understand the foundation of all axioms the exact location of ones nerve impulses would be important.

My problem with what fdesilva is doing is that he is thinking in terms of discrete events. Sure you can think of reaching a voltage threshold and sending a signal down the axon of a neuron to release a vesicle as a discrete event, but the system as a whole is continuous even though it includes some discrete events. Getting back to the analogy of the car, you could think of a rotation of a wheel as being a discrete event but that misses out how fast it is rotating, whether it is speeding up or slowing down or slanted so the car will change direction. Or for that matter whether the tyre is bald or the type of terrain it is travelling on. I suspect that thinking in terms of discrete events is another form of binary religious thinking.

We have no reason to believe that consciousness can only exist if the computation is carried out by neurons. And if consciousness arises from the brain, as suggested by point 2 in an earlier post (if I have understood it correctly), then why do we need all these other axioms about free will, music, vision etc?

2. Of the many activities in the brain a subset namely what is know as neural activities alone is taken to be fully responsible for the axioms.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Double post.

[chimp3]

fdesilva : "All 4 means is that anything that happens in the universe can be given a location in space and time. The GPS coordinates for example.
So in relation to what is happening in my Brain at any give instant in time I can say that there is a nerve impulse located at coordinates x,y,z at 10 am UTC on the 21/9/2016 etc.
I am not saying we need to get the exact locations but rather that nerve impulses etc would have an exact location.
Now for more accepted scientific observation on nerve impulses."

Not trying to complicate your equations but are you taking into account the fact that the earth turns on its own axis at 1040 mph at the equator, the earth orbits the sun at 67,000 mph, and the sun (with us)  orbits the Milky Way at 500,000 mph. Seems to me if we were trying to understand the foundation of all axioms the exact location of ones nerve impulses would be important.

My problem with what fdesilva is doing is that he is thinking in terms of discrete events. Sure you can think of reaching a voltage threshold and sending a signal down the axon of a neuron to release a vesicle as a discrete event, but the system as a whole is continuous even though it includes some discrete events. Getting back to the analogy of the car, you could think of a rotation of a wheel as being a discrete event but that misses out how fast it is rotating, whether it is speeding up or slowing down or slanted so the car will change direction. Or for that matter whether the tyre is bald or the type of terrain it is travelling on. I suspect that thinking in terms of discrete events is another form of binary religious thinking.

We have no reason to believe that consciousness can only exist if the computation is carried out by neurons. And if consciousness arises from the brain, as suggested by point 2 in an earlier post (if I have understood it correctly), then why do we need all these other axioms about free will, music, vision etc?

2. Of the many activities in the brain a subset namely what is know as neural activities alone is taken to be fully responsible for the axioms.

The GPS co-ordinates are a variable he has introduced. If not important we can delete but if at all a variable then would not accuracy be important?

[The Grand Nudger]

Location of events

Given the above nature of nerve impulses and the transmission of neurotransmitters at synapses the following would be true  about their location over time.

Let the Nerve impulses and activity at nerve synapses in the brain at any given time be enclosed in the smallest possible virtual spherical globes( image below).

Then over any length of time these globes  will never intersect.

That's an awfully fancy way to say that neurons don't disconnect themselves, walk over to their neighbors, shake hands, and merge.

[I_am_not_mafia]

Location of events

Given the above nature of nerve impulses and the transmission of neurotransmitters at synapses the following would be true  about their location over time.

Let the Nerve impulses and activity at nerve synapses in the brain at any given time be enclosed in the smallest possible virtual spherical globes( image below).

Then over any length of time these globes  will never intersect.

That's an awfully fancy way to say that neurons don't disconnect themselves, walk over to their neighbors, shake hands, and merge.

If so then it's also wrong. Neurons do break and form connections with other neurons.

It actually makes perfect sense. Hebbian learning is taken in its simplest sense to mean that neurons that fire together, wire together. Connections strengthen and weaken over time due to how the pre- and post- synaptic neuron fire. There's very little difference between having a very weak synaptic connection between two neurons and no connection at all. Synaptic drift therefore is a longer term extension to hebbian learning.

I've used this in order to tailor how I learn German for example. I can keep words in short and medium term memory, but I accept that no matter how much I learn, it will take time for it to enter long term memory. This is because my brain needs to grow the connections. So I use a scatter gun approach of trying to expose myself to as many words as possible as early as possible

I personally reckon that this is why we think that children master languages so much more effectively. No one expects them to have a good vocabulary and the same smaller set of words and grammars are presented to them for longer. There are certain things in German that are as natural to me as English because I learnt them much longer ago.