Why can't Christians Verify Exactly Where Jesus Was Buried?

[Minimalist]

If Marcion's writings predate Luke, then why do historians think he borrowed from Luke? (Honest question. I'm not too familiar with this.)

Because early xtian writers may have been superstitious twits but they weren't stupid.  The story told by Tertullian and Irenaeus is that Marcion deliberately took out those parts which did not support his thesis that the jewish god was an inferior god and not the super god who sent Christ.  It is a very gnostic belief system and with all the other gnostics out there must have been quite a formidable opposition to the proto-orthodox ( as Ehrman styles them.) 

I suppose that the proto-orthodox view is possible but it seems unlikely for three reasons.  One, even they give Marcion credit for creating the first canon.  The idea was so good that they stole it from him and spent the next couple of centuries working up their own.  Second,  there were many more than 4 gosples in existence and the suggestion is that various isolated groups of jesus freaks had their own.  Matthew, for example, seems to be the favorite of the Ebionites, a particularly "jewish" group of xtians which could explain matty's fascination with jewish traditions and folklore.  But none of them are named prior to late in the 2d century.  Justin Martyr's First Apology written to Emperor Antoninus Pius c 160 AD does not mention any of the gospel accounts.  He does mention something called the Memoirs of the Apostles but no one knows if these later evolved into gospels or not.  Justin did know how to cite specific works:  He did so with Xenophon and Plato of all people!  Third, Justin also never heard of anyone named "paul."  This is the killer-blow to early xtian bullshit.  What was Marcion's canon?  The Gospel of the Lord and 10 epistles of the so-called 'paul.'  When the story emerges in proto-orthodox circles "paul" is the guy who brings the story to the Gentiles.  He is opposed to jewish interpretations and that much comes through in his epistles.  But xtian writers set paul in the mid first century and Justin, one of those Roman gentiles who would have been the direct beneficiary of paul's efforts has never even fucking heard of him?  No. Sorry.  That is simply not possible.  It would be like someone writing a History of the American Revolution in 1876 and not mentioning George Washington even once.  Oh, and before you ask, while Justin never heard of paul, matthew, luke, mark or john he DID know of Marcion.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/te...ology.html

And there is Marcion, a man of Pontus, who is even at this day alive, and teaching his disciples to believe in some other god greater than the Creator. And he, by the aid of the devils, has caused many of every nation to speak blasphemies, and to deny that God is the maker of this universe, and to assert that some other being, greater than He, has done greater works.

Justin, First Apology  Chapter XXVI

[Aractus]

You cannot reformulate the Sermon on the Mount from James, it is substantially different and includes other areas of Jesus's teachings that are consistent with but not included in that sermon. What's most important of all is that almost nothing in James is found in the gospel of Mark at all.

Wait, you went from Matthew to Mark here.

No I didn't, I merely made the point that James's theology & teachings is not based on the gospel of Mark , the gospel of Mark being the earliest gospel.

And now to Luke?

You shouldn't have any problem with following what I'm saying. The Sermon on the Mount is found exclusively in the gospel of Matthew. James's epistle is based more on that one sermon than anything else. The Gospel of Luke contains the Sermon on the Plain which is similar to, but different from, the Sermon on the Mount.

That's kinda my point. It's not like they had tape recorders back then, and it's not like any putative authors had recordings to work from. So the idea that they could work with notes from one, or several, iterations of the same essential speech, seems pretty understandable to me.

Well yes, but they didn't have to have notes at all (it could have been transmitted orally to James), and nothing suggests that Jesus himself used written notes in his preachings - he simply remembered his sermons and delivered them to his audiences.

So what? He could simply be promulgating ideas he found nice enough without crediting the speaker, and even so Matthew, from other sources, could have found verbiage similar enough to regard James as useful, too -- corroboration in his own mind.

You are missing the point. James has knowledge about one specific sermon, or so it seems, and he is ignorant of anything Jesus taught that is recorded in Mark, and most of the rest of the stuff that is in Matthew/Luke as well. In fact, if we didn't have the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain in Matthew and Luke respectively then it would like like James came up with his teachings from Judaism and not from Jesus.

Your underlying assumption seems to be perfect knowledge on the part of the authors of the Gospels, and that seems pretty questionable, to me.

I'm not sure where you get that from, which is why I put "Mark" and "Matthew" in inverted commas...

[Aractus]

First of all the Ned Kelly analogy doesn't work because we know Kelly was a real man, we have no idea whether Yeshua bar Yosef ever existed.

Yes we do, there's scholarly consensus on that.

There is plenty of independent primary and secondary documentation of Kelly's existence and quite a lot of his exploits, yet the very best we have for Yeshua is a 2 centuries later copy of a tertiary source which was originally written two generations after his supposed death.

That's completly incorrect. We can date Paul's writings very well to the 50's AD, and we can date James and Mark to around the same period. Just because the other books were (probably) written later than 60AD doesn't alter the fact that there at least 9 including 1 gospel written before 60AD.

And your references to copies shows you are not knowledgeable about ancient writings. There are no extant first century writings anywhere that aren't on tablets or stone*. Almost everything we have is a copy, including Josephus, including ancient Roman writings.

* There is one writing in Hebrew extant from that period which survived, but the New Testament was written in Greek which itself was more common anyway.

Anyway, how do you know Ned Kelly was a real person?

Plus what little of his life we have is contradictory and doesn't make sense, ...

No it makes perfect sense and I've made that point several times. As for his crucifixion, the act of him going and disrupting the peace at the Temple was all that the Roman authorities would have needed to sentence him to death by crucifixion.

So it is pointless at this moment to talk about where Yeshua was buried because we haven't even come close to establishing whether he even lived.

Yes we have because there's scholarly consensus on that. If you doubt that in the face of scholarly consensus it's up to you to provide the evidence, of which you've provided none.

[Minimalist]

con·sen·sus

 (kən-sĕn′səs)n.1. An opinion or position reached by a group as a whole:

Richard Carrier denies you "consensus."

[Thumpalumpacus]

Wait, you went from Matthew to Mark here.

No I didn't, I merely made the point that James's theology & teachings is not based on the gospel of Mark , the gospel of Mark being the earliest gospel.

And now to Luke?

You shouldn't have any problem with following what I'm saying. The Sermon on the Mount is found exclusively in the gospel of Matthew. James's epistle is based more on that one sermon than anything else. The Gospel of Luke contains the Sermon on the Plain which is similar to, but different from, the Sermon on the Mount.

Fair enough. I'll back up and reread with this in mind.

Well yes, but they didn't have to have notes at all (it could have been transmitted orally to James), and nothing suggests that Jesus himself used written notes in his preachings - he simply remembered his sermons and delivered them to his audiences.

Obviously, in an age when literacy was rare. Writing "notes" myself, I wasn't meaning necessarily the written word, though obviously you believe it was the case.

My point, though, was that he selected that portion of what he'd heard or read which he cottoned to, and worked off of that theme. This is something writers do all the time.

You are missing the point. James has knowledge about one specific sermon, or so it seems, and he is ignorant of anything Jesus taught that is recorded in Mark, and most of the rest of the stuff that is in Matthew/Luke as well. In fact, if we didn't have the Sermon on the Mount and the Sermon on the Plain in Matthew and Luke respectively then it would like like James came up with his teachings from Judaism and not from Jesus.

"Or so it seems" is the important part of this section of your post. James wasn't restricted to reportage of the entire life of Christ. As a writer, he could certainly pick and choose those points, those themes he wished to emphasize. The idea that because he didn't write about this or that even in another Gospel could mean he hadn't read them, sure. It could also mean that they didn't resonate with him enough to merit his attention.

Your underlying assumption seems to be perfect knowledge on the part of the authors of the Gospels, and that seems pretty questionable, to me.

I'm not sure where you get that from, which is why I put "Mark" and "Matthew" in inverted commas...

I get it from your apparent taking them at face-value, and assuming that others (namely James) would not only do so, but endeavor to report their entirety as, ahem, gospel truth, when in fact any time an author sets pen to paper, he does so with an agenda.

[Foxaèr]

Jesus was never buried because he never existed.

Can we end this retardation already?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Here you go.

[Firefighter01]

As for Joseph of Arimathea's tomb, that was not Jesus's final resting place (nor was it ever intended to be). He was probably there for just the 2-3 days before his supposed resurrection, so why should anyone remember where it was? Can you remember other wealthy people's tombs from the first century?

No, but Christians that read the Bible literally believed that he was wildly popular (I reckon like John Lennon), could perform supernatural miracles, (I reckon like Merlin), had spectacular theatrics going on inside the tomb and was taken seriously enough by the Romans to have a guard and the giant rock had been removed from the entrance, yeah I would remember that cave/tomb. Alongside of all the multitudes that followed him or had heard of him.  Everyone would be glued to that cave waiting to see what would happen next. Oh yeah, and he was supposed to be the son of the creator of the universe.

I don't know whether James was supposed to be a biological brother of Jesus or just a follower.

Well if you can't at name Jesus's brothers (James, Joseph, Simeon, Judas) and not even his best known one (James the Just) then there's not much hope for you...

So do you really think that it was one big happy family? In Galatians 11 do you really think that Paul was speaking to actual family members when Paul said, I want you to know, brothers and sisters, that the gospel I preached is not of human origin. 12 I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.

How do you know that Paul knew Jesus' family?

Because he says so, specifically in Galatians 1:19.  He doesn't mention anything about the virgin birth or ministry or even Bethlehem and Nazareth, let alone other important details of his life.  So even if Jesus had a family, Paul doesn't know very much about the members at all. His unnumbered nameless sisters remain non-entities as well.

To make it even worse, no-one remembers Jesus' birthplace, whether it was a house or a manger,  the actual house where he grew up as a lad and the whereabouts of his crucifixion.

Why don't you start by figuring out my birthplace? Do you remember? The followers of Jesus can't possibly be expected to "remember" things that they were not a part of. We don't really know anything reliable about the birthplace of Jesus for that very fact that the only things we have are two (conflicting) accounts in Matthew and Luke.  He might have been born in Nazareth, he might have been born in Bethlehem, hell he could have been born in India for all we know and migrated to Nazareth as a child.

Why would I want to remember your birthplace? If he was supposed to be a Neville Nobody you would have a point and I would agree with you.

Now let's put this in context for you. You know (because I just told you) that Jesus had at least 4 brothers. Maths alone would tell you he probably had as many sisters as well, and may even have had more siblings still. So let's say he was one of 9 children - do you really expect his mother, Mary, to remember where each one of her children were born? That's the kind of thing that could easily be misremembered with so many children anyway.

Um, no, that wasn't any new knowledge for me that he supposedly had 4 brothers and maths alone could tell me that he had 2 sisters upwards.  Did any of those fictional characters have any special qualities or events like Jebus had? 

---

No I didn't, I merely made the point that James's theology & teachings is not based on the gospel of Mark , the gospel of Mark being the earliest gospel.



You shouldn't have any problem with following what I'm saying. The Sermon on the Mount is found exclusively in the gospel of Matthew. James's epistle is based more on that one sermon than anything else. The Gospel of Luke contains the Sermon on the Plain which is similar to, but different from, the Sermon on the Mount.

Fair enough. I'll back up and reread with this in mind.

Well yes, but they didn't have to have notes at all (it could have been transmitted orally to James), and nothing suggests that Jesus himself used written notes in his preachings - he simply remembered his sermons and delivered them to his audiences.

Excuse me for butting in gents, but did you realise how extremely difficult it would be to memorise and shout a speech of that length verbatim, let alone try and take notes in a crowd of multitudes?  The sermon on the mount is hugely complex, which wouldn't be a prob for a superhuman Jesus, but how could a note-taker record something like that so accurately?

Its been suggested to me previously that maybe it could get split up in small chunks and sung to be remembered orally, but wouldn't it make more sense that it was made up by consensus by a group of theologians and recorded in the Bible as if it were an actual event? Let me know if you really think it is feasible that someone delivered or even recorded it live. Here is the text;

Matthew 5
The Beatitudes
1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:
3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, 
    For theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 
4Blessed are those who mourn, 
    For they shall be comforted. 
5Blessed are the meek, 
    For they shall inherit the earth.
6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, 
    For they shall be filled. 
7Blessed are the merciful, 
    For they shall obtain mercy. 
8Blessed are the pure in heart, 
    For they shall see God. 
9Blessed are the peacemakers, 
    For they shall be called sons of God. 
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, 
    For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Believers Are Salt and Light
  13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men. 
14"You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.
Christ Fulfills the Law
  17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.
Murder Begins in the Heart
  21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
  26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.
Adultery in the Heart
  27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery.'
  28But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.
Marriage Is Sacred and Binding
  31 "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.
Jesus Forbids Oaths
  33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.
Go the Second Mile
  38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'  39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.
Love Your Enemies
  43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
  44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Matthew 6

Do Good to Please God
1"Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.
The Model Prayer
5"And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words. 
  8"Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9In this manner, therefore, pray:
Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.
14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Fasting to Be Seen Only by God
  16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
Lay Up Treasures in Heaven
 19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
The Lamp of the Body
 22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!
You Cannot Serve God and Riches
  24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.
Do Not Worry
  25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
  27Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature? 
  28"So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? 
  31"Therefore do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?' or "What shall we drink?' or "What shall we wear?' 32For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.
Matthew 7

Do Not Judge
 1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
 4Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
  6"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.
Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking
 7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
The Narrow Way
 13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.
You Will Know Them by Their Fruits
  15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
  19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
I Never Knew You
  21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'
Build on the Rock
  24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock. 
  26"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall." 
  28And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.

---

Do you also think there was a historical Osiris?  Or Zeus?  Or Quetzlcoatl?  Or Shiva?

Humans have been inventing gods since the dawn of civilization.  "Jesus" is the king of special pleading.

Not really. He wasn't originally a god. Interpreting "son of god" to mean "god incarnate" came pretty late in the evolution of the religion.

Also, Zeus doesn't have scholars like Bart Ehrman vouching for their historicity.

Edit: I  don't really give much of a fuck whether Jesus was real or not. Which is why I tend to just listen to Bart Ehrman and say, "What that guy says."

Hi Gemini!  It should be interesting when Bart has a debate with Robert Price in October this year.  Both are respected scholars and atheists, though their belief in the historicity of Jesus differs wildly.  I don't think that there has ever been such a debate in the past.  Should be a ripper!

[Gemini]

Hi Gemini!  It should be interesting when Bart has a debate with Robert Price in October this year.  Both are respected scholars and atheists, though their belief in the historicity of Jesus differs wildly.  I don't think that there has ever been such a debate in the past.  Should be a ripper!

Ooh, I love both of them. And I've never seen a debate over mythicism before. Can't wait!

[Joods]

I'm telling you all....

He's with Jimmy Hoffa.

/thread.