Ethics question for theists - serious - looking for opinions not argument.

[Drich]

Here's two more cents..

If "D" is not concerned for gay people working for the church, but is using this info to leverage in a job or paid position. Then that is extortion.

Gather evidence to the fact that she is willing to sell her 'morals' for a job/put her objections aside if she is paid or has an opportunity to sell her songs/whatever. Then once you have your recording that acknowledges you are buying her complicity or signed contract then do what you will. I'd simply hold that info and let her know I had it, that yours will not be the only fall from grace.

As she (wantobe) Christian song writer, is caught selling whatever morality she has to sell her wares.

[drfuzzy]

Here's two more cents..

If "D" is not concerned for gay people working for the church, but is using this info to leverage in a job or paid position. Then that is extortion.

Gather evidence to the fact that she is willing to sell her 'morals' for a job/put her objections aside if she is paid or has an opportunity to sell her songs/whatever. Then once you have your recording that acknowledges you are buying her complicity or signed contract then do what you will. I'd simply hold that info and let her know I had it, that yours will not be the only fall from grace.

As she (wantobe) Christian song writer, is caught selling whatever morality she has to sell her wares.

Now now . . . yeah, that did occur to me.  I was afraid that D would actually threaten to write to the people (at a major catholic organization) who set up the retreats IF she doesn't get an "in" with the music publishers.  I sure hope not, though.  I really don't think that's where she was going, I think she was just MAD, and diverting that anger by finding flaws with the people that she (once) most admired.  And she even said that she knew that writing to the retreat leader about her deception would probably mean that they will never speak again, and her chance of working with them would be gone.

I haven't heard anything.  From either of them.  But the retreat leader has a busy schedule today.  I might get a phone call this evening.

If I "fall from grace", I fall.  I am not actually connected with the retreats, I have nothing to do with their content or function any more.  I haven't published music through this organization.  If D turns out to be much more spiteful than I think she is, I will certainly tell her what I think about the situation, and then let the chips fall where they may.  If she actually tries blackmail, I will certainly tell my side of the story to our church leaders and retreat leaders.  But I hope that they talked it out last night.  I'm hoping for a positive outcome.

[brewer]

Don't leave us hanging.

[Nihilist Virus]

Catholics are pure scum, and if it weren't for Jizzlam they would the lowest of the low. Do not feel bad about lying to them or about them.

[drfuzzy]

NV - While I think that ANY theistic belief is somewhat illogical (since there has been no proof that any deity exists) - I find lovely people in every denomination and church.  I simply don't share their beliefs.  This retreat leader is one of those people - and while I'm a little irritated with the judgmental nosy nag right now, she's usually a sweet person too.  I can't categorize whole groups of people as "scum" because of the actions of a few of their members.  

Well, AF team, guess who gets to host the "truce" meeting?  Yep, yours truly.  This Saturday.  Retreat leader called last night asking for suggestions.  She offered to meet with the "stalker bitch", and look over some of her compositions, and was regretting it.  "I'm NOT giving her my address, this woman is not welcome in my home!" - and - "Why did I offer to review her music?  I get PAID to do this!"  I asked, "How much would you pay to make this problem go away?"  Retreat leader: "(*&#%+__ #$*!!!!)"  (A church lady who swears like a sailor -- I do love it.)   She said that she had promised never to pretend that she and M were husband and wife again, and that she put in an order for new flyers and a website re-write.  (Surprise! I really didn't think she would do it.)  She said that the ruse was clearly stupid and dangerous -- nosy people like D will be at every event.  That should have been enough!  I actually agreed, but she offered to schedule a composition lesson, so . . . what about using my place?
    So the wife will take the kids to their soccer practice, we'll look over music, and then the kids will pick up treats and juice boxes at my place after.  

I'll be there to play moderator, two composition teachers are better than one, and the kids are cute.  This will either go very well, or . . . not.  I'll give you an update this weekend!

[Catholic_Lady]

Good luck Dr Fuzzy. Let us know.

[brewer]

You sure you want to do this at your house and not a neutral site? In public? That tends to temper the conversation and gives you an easy escape if you need one.

Good luck!

[drfuzzy]

You sure you want to do this at your house and not a neutral site? In public? That tends to temper the conversation and gives you an easy escape if you need one.

Good luck!

Well, we'll need a piano, & probably a guitar, people will be singin', it'll get noisy.  And the church won't work, because people are coming in and out all of the time, and retreat leader is pretty well-loved there.  Interruptions would be bad.  My place is safe.  I think this will go well.  Thanks, mh, CL!

[Nihilist Virus]

NV - While I think that ANY theistic belief is somewhat illogical (since there has been no proof that any deity exists) - I find lovely people in every denomination and church.  I simply don't share their beliefs.  This retreat leader is one of those people - and while I'm a little irritated with the judgmental nosy nag right now, she's usually a sweet person too.  I can't categorize whole groups of people as "scum" because of the actions of a few of their members.  

I think you absolutely can categorize anyone with an official position of power within the Catholic church as scum.

My boss is great, he's the best boss I ever had, and I'm 99% sure he's a Catholic without having ever asked him. But he's running his own business and working another job, also he works out and has a family with 3 kids, so he's legit busy 24/7 and obviously has no position of power within the church.

But let's put this in perspective. If you worked for a huge organization that you later discovered had engaged in the cover-up of thousands upon thousands of child rapes, would you at least feel a little scummy?

[drfuzzy]

NV - While I think that ANY theistic belief is somewhat illogical (since there has been no proof that any deity exists) - I find lovely people in every denomination and church.  I simply don't share their beliefs.  This retreat leader is one of those people - and while I'm a little irritated with the judgmental nosy nag right now, she's usually a sweet person too.  I can't categorize whole groups of people as "scum" because of the actions of a few of their members.  

I think you absolutely can categorize anyone with an official position of power within the Catholic church as scum.

My boss is great, he's the best boss I ever had, and I'm 99% sure he's a Catholic without having ever asked him.  But he's running his own business and working another job, also he works out and has a family with 3 kids, so he's legit busy 24/7 and obviously has no position of power within the church.

But let's put this in perspective.  If you worked for a huge organization that you later discovered had engaged in the cover-up of thousands upon thousands of child rapes, would you at least feel a little scummy?

I do work for the catholic church.  I know that they have had corruption and abuse throughout their history, and it hasn't been eradicated.  I met a Bishop who had covered up abuse - and I was not anxious to spend any time in his company.  (And this was before I knew.)  I met a Bishop who is a fan of Pope Francis, and who has worked to root out abuse - and I find him a very pleasant person.  I love my country, but the same could be said for America - there are abuses of power, there is a horrible history of racism and genocide and oppression.  There are folks who want to get rid of anyone who isn't white (!!!), and folks who want to make life better for every American.  
    I don't feel scummy because I work for the catholic church.  I have some reservations about myself as a lesbian atheist working for the catholic church, where most of the people in the pews think I'm a devout catholic.   
    I would prefer to challenge illogical beliefs - - and not attack a whole group.  There is good and bad . . . almost anywhere.