Posts: 105
Threads: 10
Joined: October 10, 2016
Reputation:
1
RE: Your moral compass
October 10, 2016 at 6:33 pm
(October 10, 2016 at 6:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Oh well, murder someone because you're sick...... and I'm still gong to take action against you...by locking you in a room I will never let you out of.
/ shrugs But don't you wish there were a way to, idk, save those people from a life condemned to a cell? I feel bad for people that have to go through that. It would be cool if with neuro science we could go in and like, rewire their brain so they're not psychopathic.
That's often how my thoughts pan out. I try to imagine things that are way outside of the box.
Posts: 66321
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Your moral compass
October 10, 2016 at 6:43 pm
Wish in one hand, shit in the other. You know, alot of fucked up things in life boil down to wishful thinking. Food for thought.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 105
Threads: 10
Joined: October 10, 2016
Reputation:
1
RE: Your moral compass
October 10, 2016 at 6:45 pm
Not really wishful thinking. I was wondering more if you had any feelings for criminals besides just locking them away like animals.
Posts: 9147
Threads: 83
Joined: May 22, 2013
Reputation:
46
RE: Your moral compass
October 10, 2016 at 6:47 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2016 at 6:48 pm by bennyboy.)
(October 10, 2016 at 6:33 pm)EruptedCarcassBloat Wrote: (October 10, 2016 at 6:31 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Oh well, murder someone because you're sick...... and I'm still gong to take action against you...by locking you in a room I will never let you out of.
/ shrugs But don't you wish there were a way to, idk, save those people from a life condemned to a cell? I feel bad for people that have to go through that. It would be cool if with neuro science we could go in and like, rewire their brain so they're not psychopathic.
That's often how my thoughts pan out. I try to imagine things that are way outside of the box.
You can do that. It's called a frontal lobotomy. The question is partly whether a person who's live all their lives with one set of traits would not see a person with another set of traits as death, or possibly murder, of the self.
I know, for example, that I could be a much better person if I were "rewired." By from my current perspective, would I want that new-thinking guy fucking my wife and living my life? No. I have to accept myself, my limitations, my dreams and failures, as part of what it means to be me, and losing that would amount to death of the self.
Posts: 105
Threads: 10
Joined: October 10, 2016
Reputation:
1
RE: Your moral compass
October 10, 2016 at 6:54 pm
(This post was last modified: October 10, 2016 at 7:01 pm by EruptedCarcassBloat.)
(October 10, 2016 at 6:47 pm)bennyboy Wrote: (October 10, 2016 at 6:33 pm)EruptedCarcassBloat Wrote: But don't you wish there were a way to, idk, save those people from a life condemned to a cell? I feel bad for people that have to go through that. It would be cool if with neuro science we could go in and like, rewire their brain so they're not psychopathic.
That's often how my thoughts pan out. I try to imagine things that are way outside of the box.
You can do that. It's called a frontal lobotomy. The question is partly whether a person who's live all their lives with one set of traits would not see a person with another set of traits as death, or possibly murder, of the self.
I know, for example, that I could be a much better person if I were "rewired." By from my current perspective, would I want that new-thinking guy fucking my wife and living my life? No. I have to accept myself, my limitations, my dreams and failures, as part of what it means to be me, and losing that would amount to death of the self. Well I don't agree with lobotomies at all, and that's not what I mean. I meant what if there was some sort of transmogrifier that could rearrange the particles inside of your brain into a more ideal form, and only effect the part of you responsible for psychopathic behavior. So yeah, it would change a part of that person, but for the better. And that seems like it would certainly be a better way of dealing with these things than just saying that a person should be locked away inside of a cell for the rest of their life.
I have a problem with that. Because I find the idea of anyone having so much control over someone else, that they could just toss out their life as if it was a dead chunk of skin or something, to be philosophically unsettling. I think that all human life should be valued more highly than looking at each individual human as if they were just a blood cell in a larger organism. The way I see it, the way we treat people in our society is we treat them like blood cells in a machine. If a blood cell becomes cancerous and doesn't do it's job, we cut it out and kill it. Human beings deserve much more compassion than that. That same logic is the reasons that cops shoot first and ask questions later, it's the same reasons that countries go to war with other countries. In the end, whoever the good guy and the bad guy is is just the guy who got to write history.
Also, isn't what defines our experience as a human being our memory, not our personality? If you still had your memory you would still have all the experiences that make up your life, and you'd still have the continuous stream of memory that connects the earliest memory to your current memory, meaning you'd still unequivocally feel and be "alive."
Posts: 66321
Threads: 140
Joined: June 28, 2011
Reputation:
160
RE: Your moral compass
October 10, 2016 at 6:58 pm
Ah..."philosophically" -there's your trouble, lol. 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Posts: 105
Threads: 10
Joined: October 10, 2016
Reputation:
1
RE: Your moral compass
October 10, 2016 at 6:59 pm
(October 10, 2016 at 6:58 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Ah..."philosophically" -there's your trouble, lol. Hmmmm
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Your moral compass
October 11, 2016 at 5:52 am
(This post was last modified: October 11, 2016 at 6:12 am by robvalue.)
(October 10, 2016 at 6:15 pm)EruptedCarcassBloat Wrote: (September 23, 2016 at 4:56 am)robvalue Wrote: Morality is subjective. I'd say almost everyone has a compass, it's just some are unpopular/unusual.
People who don't have one at all would presumably be psycopaths, who don't consider any action to be bad or good, even subjectively. Their compass has no opinion, just "do whatever".
So basically psychopaths are the only people with correct views of morality? LOL
I actually believe that's true, that nothing is inherently right or wrong. But I think that I also have my own idea of what right and wrong is that I believe in and stand for. I do think that ultimately all morals are just subjective to whoever is coming up with them. Do you think something is right? What even measures that, and what is everyone's different type of measurement? It's arbitrary as fuck, which is why there's no actual morality.
I like Sam Harris's view though, that you can develop morality through science. I think he's right too, you can observe empirically what is best for others through science.
I'm saying there is no correct view. Psycopaths just have a different view. I suppose you could say it's the nearest to an objective view.
Of course, I have things I believe are right and wrong. Absolutely, and I will stand up for them. But I'd never presume to simple announced I am right. I will explain why I think my values are important. Either I convince people or I don't.
I don't agree with Sam at all. You can develop the best way to certain goals through science, yes. Of course you can. But "what's best for others" is still highly subjective. We need to quantify that before applying science, and who gets to do that? At best it's some sort of agreed middle ground. If it's just what Sam says it is, then that's as subjective as anything else. As times and cultures change, what is "best for people" changes too. Because objectively, there is no such thing. We must choose the metrics first. Excluding anything we don't like is just the No True Scotsman. I see Sam doing nothing more than inserting pre-packaged philosophy and value judgements. Science can't tell us what is best for us, it only provides data. There is no objective way of measuring how far away we are from the "worst possible case for everyone" or whatever he calls it. He's not talking about morality. He's talking about developing methodically along certain presupposed metrics. The morality stage he has entirely missed out.
Of course we can decide between us what is a good idea, and work towards it. Morality is far more complex than this. Morality is only really tested when there is a conflict between outcomes, and limited resources. And at this point, value judgements come into play. Always. The discussion never seems to get this far, it's always dealing with extremely obvious things like "living longer is probbaly better" and "not shooting each other is good".
I'm not having a go at you here, just discussing ideas  As one major objection to trying to "sciencify" morality, how do animals factor in? How important is their wellbeing, and indeed their lives, compared to ours? Again, there's no correct answer.
Posts: 29107
Threads: 218
Joined: August 9, 2014
Reputation:
155
RE: Your moral compass
October 11, 2016 at 6:39 am
(This post was last modified: October 11, 2016 at 6:46 am by robvalue.)
So to sum up...
We use science do to everything. It's the best tool for the job. There is nothing special about applying it to the results of our decided morality. But science can't determine those results for us objectively. I'd say morality is based on emotions, in a nutshell.
I just posted this vid in another thread but it turns out it's quite relevant here.
https://youtu.be/qvPeaSezHsE
|
