What is evidence?

[vorlon13]

I note the Mormons consider evidence of the gold plates to include people who claimed to have seen them in dreams. That some of these folks later apostatized and were excommunicated from the faith, however, does not lessen in the eyes of the Mormons the veracity of their testimony.

Not sure who we square that with how the rest of the planet works . . . .


As for the tree trimming accident, I've been in a similar situation, trying to ascertain what went wrong with some machinery and resulted in people being injured. I figured out the issue, reported the findings to the poohbahs of the organization, gave them a few days to fix the hardware, and when seeing they weren't to excited about the work involved, I went and bought a $200 DeWalt cordless impact tool, and fixed the damn thing myself. This was in 2012, and the problem has not recurred.

I wasn't thanked or acknowledged in any way.

[Thumpalumpacus]

How was that?

Sounded great, quit bogarting the fucking bong already.

[Thumpalumpacus]

 That's a giant flashing neon red warning sign.

The word it's flashing: ASSUMPTION! ASSUMPTION! ASSUMPTION!

[Arkilogue]

Life isn't evolving towards more complex organisms.  It's not evolving towards anything in specific at all.  Life -has- evolved into more complex organisms, in specific instances, but complex life has -also- been selected against at least once or twice globally, and constantly on a regional and local scale.  Every single time you read about a species going extinct, it was their very complexity, their specificity of environment and necessity of particular conditions....that cause that end.  

You started with the spikes not being in the tree...and this is where the raft drifts.  Maybe you ought to consider the prospect that you got something wrong much earlier in the process?  Whatever method you're applying to your observations (whatever they may be) are leading, in your own estimation, to counter-factual conclusions.  That's a giant flashing neon red warning sign.

Yes, DNA development truncated by rare catastrophic external events. And if it was not interrupted in it's internal process?

What counter factual conclusion are you referring to specifically?

[The Grand Nudger]

That there is any specific direction to the evolution of life, and that if there were, it would be complex organisms.  Beyond any questions of how slippery your metrics are for complexity, or in what sense you may be deigning to use the term....it's simply an untenable position.  We know it to be untrue.  

If some method that you've applied to some observation leads to known, and demonstrably false, conclusions...there is either a problem with the method..or the observations (in fact that's one way we test our propositions and our inferences for soundness and validity).  Your observation, apparently, had to do with the presence (or lack thereof) of spikescars in a tree.. seems to be fairly mundane...but this extrapolation from that is so fanciful that I'm surprised that I even have to elaborate, and leaves me entirely certain that the problem is in method.

[Arkilogue]

That there is any specific direction to the evolution of life, and that if there were, it would be complex organisms.  Beyond any questions of how slippery your metrics are for complexity, or in what sense you may be deigning to use the term....it's simply an untenable position.  We know it to be untrue.  

If some method that you've applied to some observation leads to known, and demonstrably false, conclusions...then their is either a problem with the method..or the observations.  Your observation, apparently, had to do with the presence (or lack thereof) of spikes in a tree.. seems to be fairly mundane...but this extrapolation from that is so fanciful that I'm surprised that I even have to elaborate, and leaves me entirely certain that the problem is in method.

More complexity meaning greater ability through either body or senses to gain information and interact with/take advantage of the surrounding environment. Barring severe interruption of environmental constants.

The two are unrelated, I said so before starting this.

But if you want something related, I suppose the absence of spike holes in most people lives could be evidence that God does not constantly prune us, and is largely absent from interfering with the trees growth beside environmental factors. If life is like a season of growth and fruiting, death is like the season of harvest and pruning.

Weirdly enough I have found a dead God in the crown of the world tree....several of them infact....long dead.

Also not related to the absence of spike holes, just my lateral thinking mind going side-ways.

[robvalue]

Nothing can be evidence of God until it is defined in a falsifiable way.

[The Grand Nudger]

More complexity meaning greater ability through either body or senses to gain information and interact with/take advantage of the surrounding environment. Barring severe interruption of environmental constants.

Sensory junkie thinks sensory is the bar, no surprise.  I see we've already added a caveat....seems to be a massive one, given the frequency with which environmental constraints present "severe interruption".   Sensory this and thats are the direction, so long as nothing bad happens to them?  Everything is the direction, so long as nothing bad happens to it.  This is a rule or path that leads nowhere in specific, and everywhere in general..which is flatly self defeating to any claim of a specific direction.  It's also, again... demonstrably, untrue. Evolution does not have a direction, and no trait is exclusively advantageous.

The only reason you can be fooled, for example..is your "complexity".  An epidemic of credulity could off you, which I doubt would effect an ameoba.

The two are unrelated, I said so before starting this.

But if you want something related, I suppose the absence of spike holes in most people lives could be evidence that God does not constantly prune us, and is largely absent from interfering with the trees growth beside environmental factors. If life is like a season of growth and fruiting, death is like the season of harvest and pruning.

Weirdly enough I have found a dead God in the crown of the world tree....several of them infact....long dead.

Also not related to the absence of spike holes, just my lateral thinking mind going side-ways.

What, then, informs you of the specific direction of evolutionary development, and that this specific direction is the "complexity" which you have defined?

[Arkilogue]

Nothing can be evidence of God until it is defined in a falsifiable way.

Not evidence of God, evidence of almost exclusively non-interfering on a moment to moment basis whether there is or isn't a God.

Kinda like theological Sudoku, I don't know what number goes there, but I know 9 doesn't/can't/is not present.

[robvalue]

OK, can you make that falsifiable, or at least statistically testable? You understand the importance, right?

If you're going to use a statistical test you're going to have to be very careful where your parameters come from.