New Clinton email controversy

[vorlon13]

I'm curious, what exactly was in those emails? All I'm hearing is about how this server was hacked or something. Enlighten me.

Anthony Weiner was sending dick pics to Bill Clinton.

[Catholic_Lady]

Funny how the Clinton "email controversy" is so big that this thread is now about abortion....

But anyway, the problem arises for people on any side of this issue that outlawing abortions does almost nothing to reduce them.  It does nothing to save lives, and only risks more lives.  This is a fact.
If you wish women to have less abortions, the answer is more access to birth control, especially for poorer people, and more education. These are the only methods that are proven to reduce abortions.

So, if you are pro-life, stop wasting your time trying to ban abortions. Much like banning drugs, it just drives the the service into the black market, but does not reduce rates of unwanted behavior.  Start spending time making access to Planned Parenthoood and other women's health clinics GREATER, so more women don't have unwanted pregnancies in the first place. If you make abortions illegal, it also makes it so less women have access to to education and birth control and DRIVES ABORTION RATES UP.

The places with the highest rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion are the places where it is the most difficult to access (except for eastern europe, where birth control is illegal but abortion is not, what an effed up place!!).  
I know it seems counter-intuitive, but a lot of things work this way.  Make them illegal, and they get worse. Bring them into the light and educate people and help PREVENT the problem in the first place.

I can actually agree that simply outlawing abortion isn't the answer, and the article I posted touched on that as well. What we need to do is work towards building a culture that recognizes the value of all human life in all its stages... so that abortion becomes unthinkable to the vast majority of people. And Trump is absolutely not the guy who promotes this kind of respect for humanity. I do think abortion should be illegal, but I think it needs to get to that point in the right way. In a way that involves a changing of attitude towards life.

[LadyForCamus]

But depression/suicidal ideation can be treated.  Would it really be wise to let a woman make a decision like that while she is not mentally/emotionally sound?  What are the risks of the psychological trauma this would cause if she regrets her decision after getting well?   Much like women who harm their babies while suffering PPD; we wouldn't consider those decisions that of a rational, psychologically healthy person.

Another case in Ireland, an (19 year old) asylum seeker was locked in a mental hospital because she was at serious risk of committing suicide because she was carrying a foetus as a result of rape back home (or during her journey, a lot of the details were in camera) so that she could be forced to carry to term. She had no legal way to get to the UK for an abortion (official number of annual abortions in the UK by Irish women is over 4,000 but NHS England reckon the number in England alone is 50% or more higher).

That's what happens when anti abortion regimes are in place, any thought for the righs or health of the woman go out the window. My advice to the likes of Catholic Lady and other anti aborts is "if you don't like abortions, don't have any. Don't impose your dogma on others".

I agree with that advice.

I guess my point is, the state doesn't typically let mentally incapacitated people make other serious decisions about their life and health (DNR's, DNI's, ect.) so why should an abortion be different? I'm thinking of the well being of the mother here; not just the fetus. Could you imagine how damaging it could be for a woman who goes forward with that decision while mentally unhealthy, and then regrets it once she is well? If she's prone to suicidal tendencies for whatever reason, to begin with, I'm sure having that type is guilt and grief on her shoulders isn't going to aid in recovery.

And of course, extenuating circumstances like the one you mentioned above should be considered in terms of risk versus benefit to the woman. To me, rape is ALWAYS an extenuating circumstance.

[Neo-Scholastic]

Forcing a woman to give birth, when it puts her life in danger is absolutely fucking abhorrent.  Every woman should have a say over her own healthcare.  To say otherwise is pretty indefensible.

I agree with the first statement and fortunately there are, in most cases, good ethical ways to avoid the dilemma. I also agree that every woman (and man) should be the ultimate authority over the integrity and treatment of their own body.

Is a fetus part of a woman's body or is it a distinct organism? I think it is hard to argue that fetuses serve any necessary biological function of a woman, similar to the way spleens or lungs do. As such, fetuses are not in fact parts of pregnant women's bodies. Therefore the argument that a right abortion is grounded in the woman's ownership of her body is a complete non sequitor.

One could then argue that since fetuses are physically dependent upon their mothers that gives mothers certain rights over her children that includes killing them. But dependency alone is not a sufficient condition for granting life and death authority over another human being. Infants and toddlers are also physically dependent on adult care. Some qualification is necessary to distinguish between pre- and post-birth physical dependency.

Could viability serve as such a qualifier? That too is problematic. Healthy fetuses naturally develop into infants in the same way that infants naturally develop into mature adults provided the necessary and sufficient conditions are present to meet their needs. It seems strange to say that a human being isn't viable simply because it will wither and die for lack of basic necessities. What makes it right to fatally withhold the basic life necessities of a very young human being but not right to do the same to an infant or an adult.

Maybe one could say that parents have the right to make health care decisions for their children? In the case of abortion, that would include actively ending the life of one's very young child. But does anyone truly believe that parents have such all-encompassing authority? On what basis do we justify limiting that authority later after baby has simply changed its physical location from inside the womb to out in the world?

[Pat Mustard]

My bold. That would be all fine and dandy if abortion was a victimless act.

It is. Get over your stone-age superstitious misogyny.

[Pat Mustard]

I guess my point is, the state doesn't typically let mentally incapacitated people make other serious decisions about their life and health (DNR's, DNI's, ect.) so why should an abortion be different?

Suicidal ideation is not the same as something like schizophrenia (with an uncle who was schizophrenic, I've a vague idea of how bad that is), and while an abortion won't get rid of the underlying medical problems the sufferer is under, the fact that the event that is causing the person to contemplate and plan a suicide event is a big help in giving the medical authorities the space and time to be able to deal with the underlying issues and hopefully cure the problem.

It's no different ethically than giving a pregnant woman chemotherapy that would kill the foetus to cure her cancer.

[ReptilianPeon]

(the following turned out to be a hoax by the way, but I'm not going to delete any part of this post)

Does anyone know what's going on here? I also heard Michelle Obama deleted all of her tweets related to Hilary.

https://twitter.com/zachhaller/status/79...9917824000

Screenshot evidence Obama not following Hilary:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwMWVr5XEAUC12Q.jpg

screenshot evidence Michelle not following Hilary anymore:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwMWWIQWAAAmD5b.jpg

And a second tweet:

https://twitter.com/zachhaller/status/79...6059206656

[Catholic_Lady]

Does anyone know what's going on here? I also heard Michelle Obama deleted all of her tweets related to Hilary.

https://twitter.com/zachhaller/status/79...9917824000

Screenshot evidence Obama not following Hilary:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwMWVr5XEAUC12Q.jpg

screenshot evidence Michelle not following Hilary anymore:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwMWWIQWAAAmD5b.jpg

And a second tweet:

https://twitter.com/zachhaller/status/79...6059206656

I have no idea. There's just been so much drama involving this election, I can't even keep up anymore.

[Aroura]

Funny how the Clinton "email controversy" is so big that this thread is now about abortion....

But anyway, the problem arises for people on any side of this issue that outlawing abortions does almost nothing to reduce them.  It does nothing to save lives, and only risks more lives.  This is a fact.
If you wish women to have less abortions, the answer is more access to birth control, especially for poorer people, and more education. These are the only methods that are proven to reduce abortions.

So, if you are pro-life, stop wasting your time trying to ban abortions. Much like banning drugs, it just drives the the service into the black market, but does not reduce rates of unwanted behavior.  Start spending time making access to Planned Parenthoood and other women's health clinics GREATER, so more women don't have unwanted pregnancies in the first place. If you make abortions illegal, it also makes it so less women have access to to education and birth control and DRIVES ABORTION RATES UP.

The places with the highest rates of unwanted pregnancy and abortion are the places where it is the most difficult to access (except for eastern europe, where birth control is illegal but abortion is not, what an effed up place!!).  
I know it seems counter-intuitive, but a lot of things work this way.  Make them illegal, and they get worse. Bring them into the light and educate people and help PREVENT the problem in the first place.

I can actually agree that simply outlawing abortion isn't the answer, and the article I posted touched on that as well. What we need to do is work towards building a culture that recognizes the value of all human life in all its stages... so that abortion becomes unthinkable to the vast majority of people. And Trump is absolutely not the guy who promotes this kind of respect for humanity. I do think abortion should be illegal, but I think it needs to get to that point in the right way. In a way that involves a changing of attitude towards life.

Creating a culture of life is a lovely idea, as if we arent striving for that already, but do you realize people who believe that human life start at conception are not actually less likely to have an abortion? People do not chose abortion because they don't care, they chose it because they are desperate.

We currently live in a world where violence is less tolerated than at any other time before us. If that alone were the answer, we would see rates dropping in relation, but we don't. Abortion rates only drop in relation to birth control access, health care access, and education. It is still legal federally, and our rates continue to drop. Yay!

You say you agree that simply outlawing it isn't the answer, but I'm trying to explain how it is never the answer. It might succeed in punishing many people, but it would not succeed in saving the lives of unborn children.

We need to remove the causes, the desperate situations. Outlawing it does nothing to that end, it is punitive only.

[Aroura]

Does anyone know what's going on here? I also heard Michelle Obama deleted all of her tweets related to Hilary.

https://twitter.com/zachhaller/status/79...9917824000

Screenshot evidence Obama not following Hilary:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwMWVr5XEAUC12Q.jpg

screenshot evidence Michelle not following Hilary anymore:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CwMWWIQWAAAmD5b.jpg

And a second tweet:

https://twitter.com/zachhaller/status/79...6059206656

This is just a stupid prank, totally false.
https://www.google.com/search?q=snopes+m...e&ie=UTF-8